So I see a lot of "Kurt Angle is one of the all time greats" you know the usually crap people say. I've usually just chalked this up inexperienced fans who don't know any better. Meltzer and his HOF voters have already made him a WON HOFer. The faults with Angle that I see are the following:

1. He's only wrestled in the WWF style. I've come to refer to the WWF style as "wrestling for dummies" because it's meant to cover up bad workers. The current great workers on the roster like Guerrero could go to any fed and immediately hold their own in different styles. Angle hasn't been given this chance but he's only good at one style.

2. Mic skills aren't that great. I thought he was pretty good on the mic during his first 6 months but when they started tweaking his character a bit he seemed to fall apart. His delivery is pretty varied as he can go from a methodical pace to being a motormouth in a matter of seconds. He's also inefficient with his words. When he does a longer promo it comes across like a Senator using a filibuster but Triple H is still by far the worst offender in this department

3. In ring he needs an experienced worker to reign him in. I say this because Angle likes to just throw bomb after bomb without taking the time to sell without a Mysterio or Guerrero in there. Remember last year he complained after Summerslam because Guerrero wanted to sell moves and it upset him because he wanted to go on to the next move. He also tends to steal other workers signature spots which annoys me personally.

Match wise there are a lot of things that hurt him. He overuses a lot of his moves. There are some matches where you'll see him use the same belly to belly suplex a few times and go for the anklelock several times. His selling goes from bad to good depending but then Shawn Michaels is considered a great worker despite his awful selling.

The big shot against Angle is his Iron Man match with Brock Lesnar. Here was his big chance to breakout of the WWF style a bit and show he could fill up an hour. He failed miserably at it. He showed a complete inability to work that long. I'll defend him a bit since you could watch Shawn Michaels completely fall apart during the second half of his Iron Man with Bret Hart.

That's all I've got to start. I'll probably have more to write later on.

I couldn't disagree more with you.

1. Yes, he's only wrestled in WWE, but who cares, he's good at it. He has more great matches with moro different opponents than almost anyone on the roster.

2. He's one of the very best on the mic. Period. I really don't know how you could think otherwise. It's tough to even argue that point.

3. Everyone is better with an experienced worker, but Angle can carry a guy too. He had a very good match with Lesnar at WM, and he even made Cena look great in his first match in WWE.

Also, the iron man match wasn't as bad as people would like to say. It wasn't great, but it certainly wasn't horrible.

The WWF style is a very dumbed down version of wrestling and was invented to protect weak workers. If Angle went to Japan tomorrow and had to wrestle a puro style match he would be completely lost. You could send Benoit, Jericho, Flair and a lot of other workers there tomorrow and they'd be just fine.

Because he hasn't had anything interesting to say in a long time.

Cena was also motivated and a better overall worker than what he is today. Lesnar also had good matches with several other guys. His matches with Benoit and Eddie were better than any of his matches with Angle. The Angle/Lesnar series was horribly overrated at the time. His HIAC with the Undertaker was on the same level as most of the Lesnar/Angle matches so it doesn't say a lot about Angle's carry ability.

Angle is WORLDS better than Jericho or Flair right now. Neither of them have touched his match with HBK in years. To say otherwise is not being realistic.

Is that his fault, or because he's feuding with Sharmell?

The only one I'll agree with is Eddie. His match with Lesnar at No way Out was incredible. Other than that, Angle gave Lesnar his second best match.

Doesn't change my point at all. Jericho and Flair even past their primes can go to Japan and know what to do. Angle can't.

He hasn't said anything different or unique since he had the three Is.

I'd still say his Smackdown matches with Benoit were better than his matches with Angle. I'd put his match with Rock and HIAC with Undertaker in the same league as his Angle matches.

a. You can't possibly know that because it hasn't happened.
b. Why does it matter? He's confined to the WWE style, so as long as he does that well...who cares?

He said "Bestiality" in a wrestling Promo last week. THAT is unique.

I figure that I would weigh in here a bit.....

-Well, I would somewhat agree with this. The WWE style is "wrestling for dummies" to a certain degree, but it's a lot harder to watch coming from people who can't work. I don't think I could put Angle in that category, but he certainly is overrated in the workrate department as his matches are incredibly flawed if he's in there with someone that's not on his level. I do agree that he would be clueless in another working environment, but he COULD learn if necessessary as he does seem to be extremely dedicated to the sport.

-His mic skills may not be incredibly entertaining as of late...........but he's got them. Actually the fact that they give Angle such shit to use on the mic..........it does hurt him. But the mic skills are there...........

-The main problem that I have with him is unintelligent work. He has a problem with selling moves when they are performed on him and I've stated time and time again of the lack of work on the ankle/knee when his finisher is related to the exact area. Plus, the "locker room leader" role that Angle tries to take with people like Guerrero kind of pisses me off.........I'm old school with that shit. Respect guys that have made a living in the business longer than you......plain and simple, especially someone like Guerrero.

I like to refer to this as I forgot what to do, so I'll just do a bunch of suplexes phase that Angle tends to go with quite often. To defend Michaels by the way, his selling has been awful...........but he always played the "superhero babyface" so I could look past it.............somewhat.

I can't totally blame that on Angle though. I think the problem with the Angle/Lesner ironman was the fact that it was totally just used to further the angle and not to put on a great match. For the most part though, I think that the WWE is the wrong place for the ironman match.......

I care that he's only wrestled in the WWE. I don't think you could totally discredit him as a worker simply because of it, but I would certainly put others above him for their ability to work several different styles. Also, he does put on good matches, but generally his matches that he would have to carry do tend to disappoint unlike guys like Benoit, Guerrero, Mysterio, HBK, etc.

-He definately has mic skills, but I stated above that his biggest problem on the mic is the subject matter he's given...........not his skills.

Angle's strong point is NOT carrying other workers below his skill level. I would be the first person to say that the best people that the WWE has like that now are HBK and Eddie Guerrero. I thought that Angle showed great improvement in this area in his match with Cena at NWO 05, but it's slipped horribly lately. He couldn't carry Booker at JD05 to anything about **.

Booker has become quite the lug lately.

I don't think there are really any great hour long matches that aren't overrated.

And about Angle and the WWE style, don't get me wrong, obviously he's only westled the WWE style, which has dumbed down his abilities. If you were to send Angle to Japan, I think he might suck at first, but I think he could adapt to the style. He does have a lot more wrestling background than a lot of pro wrestlers. I htink he's lost touched with his old wrestling style, but it's still there. It's just a matter of getting it out in the right environment. And besides, that might be considered "boring" to most WWE fans, so why bring it out?

ANd about his mic skills, I personally think he's pretty damn good on the mic. Most of the time his subject on the mic doesn't terrific, that's why what he says seems kind of lame; but given what the subjct is, he's still able to add at least a little something interesting to it.

I half agree on here, but half disagree. WWF signed him to a contract before he ever wrestled a worked match, so eh...

Agreed... Angle can cut a good promo now and then, but they tend to suck more often than not. He's still better than Triple H's slow as hell delivery.

1000% Agreed. I was actually going to make a comment about this in the Judgment Day thread, but felt it was unnecessary to the topic. Angles best matches have been with smart workers like Benoit, Guerrero, Austin, Mysterio, etc. etc. Just because he had a good match with the Undertaker doesn't mean shit. The Undertaker CAN be a good wrestler when he wants to, but his character usually doesn't allow it.

Also agreed. If you can't sell a fucking move, you aren't even in consideration for "great". Just because you can steal someones moves (Benoits rolling germans, Ultimos no-sell and throw off top turnbuckle, Shamrocks ankle lock...) and do them over and over again doesn't make you great, and if you don't have the intelligence to sell big moves, than you are just "good."

Another half in both ways. Angle was never really conditioned to wrestle an hour match, and neither was Lesnar, but for two guys who are "the greatest wrestlers today" (I spit on that comment), they really did suck at everything for the first 40 minutes.

But you can't knock that he's one of the best wrestlers today. May be not the best, but one of them.

He's not even top 20 today. Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Rey Mysterio Jr., Christopher Daniels, AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Jushin Liger, Shawn Michaels, Shelton Benjamin, James Gibson, Bryan Danielson just for starters easily blow him out of the water. This isn't even counting the rest of Japan, U.S. Indies or Lucha. Those were just guys off the top of my head.

Ditto... the only argument in that list is Jushin Liger, who in his prime, slaughters Angle in terms of workrate. Just so I'm not goofing up.. is James Gibson TWFKA Jamie Knoble?

Liger slaughters Angle now even though he's years past his prime. Liger still has an incredible moveset (the best still today) and can wrestle any style you throw him into well.

And Angle's 2 years past his prime at this point anyway. The neck injury before WM 19 was it for him as far as his prime.

Name one match that Shelton Benjamin or James Gibson have had that touch anything that Angle's done. That's being rediculous. I like those guys fine, but keep things in perspective.

His match with Shawn Michaels a couple of weeks ago, some of his WGTT matches vs. Mysterio and Kidman and his match with Jericho at Backlash are all up there with Angle's better matches. Plus Shelton is a rising star while Angle is rapidly falling off as a worker. As of this moment Shelton is a superior wrestler.

Several of Gibson's matches with Tajiri and Velocity matches were good. He kept up pretty well with Angle despite not getting anywhere near the calibur of opponents or time to make him look as good. Several of his RoH matches have been said to be in the **** range.

Honestly man, none of those even sniff Angle / HBK from Mania. Not even close. Shelton has potential, but he hasn't delivered on it much at all yet, which is fine, because he has time. But there's no way you can put him in fromt of Kurt right now.

They are not. Gibson's best matches are still with Jung Dragons in WCW. Seems to have potential, but no classic matches.

I'll take it that the bolded part of that quote is just sarcasm. But out that list, the only guys that are in Angle's class are Benoit, Eddie, Rey, and maybe Danielson given the right opportunity.

In ANGLES CLASS? If anything, Angle may be knocking on the door of THEIR Class. I'm sorry, but trying to say Angle is as good or better than Benoit, Eddie, or Mysterio is a joke.

I hope you noticed that they are the ones I named as being at least as good as him. And yes, I think they are better.

A huge flaw in this argument is talking about Angle, Jericho, Flair or anyone in the E going to Japan and being able to work. Regardless of what the WWE style is, why the hell would any of these people go to Japan? They are in the most profitable wrestling company in the world. They're on Cable and Network television every week. Angle will and should never go to Japan, so who the fuck cares if he COULD go to Japan. That is just asanine.

You're talking about two different worlds here anyway. I got a tape a few years ago...Misawa v Kobashi or something, I dunno. Supposed to be full of ***** matches, but they are just spotty and head-droppy to me.

It is a different style, and we have no clue who could or could not work both at this point. To argue the "greatness" of a current wrestler seems just pointless though. If he is in your top 10, then he is....if he isn't then he isnt. This is a subjective thing...so drop it.

I was just worried about the way you worded that last comment... and Jamiegeist is trying to ruin the fun of a good argument, which is something the WWE Folde rhas been lacking for the past few weeks. :(

So why discuss anything in pro wrestling? It's all a matter of opinion. Most of us are here because that's what we like to do.

I thought you're other points were pretty good. You're right, why worry about whether or not Angle can work a style that he'll probably never have to work? When discussing guitarists, noone ever asks if Jimi Hendrix could have played jazz.

See this is the kind of shit that I can't stand. A person that decides since they have a copy of puro and don't understand it that it's spotty and head droppy. Do you understand how everything in those matches were build up? I doubt it. They are some of the greatest matches in the history of wrestling. If it's not your cup of tea............fine, I can deal with that. But don't discredit something you obviously no nothing about.

Secondly, why should we drop it? Because it's a thought provoking discussion about wrestling on a wrestling message board? Nah, we won't be dropping it anytime soon......so you may not want to click on this thread again. Otherwise, go to the flame wars folder and read bullshit when you spend your time here.......

Although a lot of those a great in-ring, only a few can cut a good promo, especially on the mic - week after week.

Now, Shawn Michaels...there is someone is overrated.

I don't get why to drop it either. There aren't too, too many things on this board that we typically disagree on. This is one of the better type of discussions we've had on the board (minus HoF).

Being a "good talker" means nothing in wrestling. In the 70's, 80's, and early 90's, almost EVERY heel had a manager to do his talking. Does this mean they sucked? No...

Or another example... Bret Hart was hardly a entertaining talker, but could wrestle circles around 99% of the people that were on the roster when he was in the WWF.

And I agree on the HBK thing... he is the King of Overrated, but I still think Angle is in line for the thrown.

Actually I would agree with MD that all of those he named are better than Angle right now. Anyone wanting to question Gibson, really should check out his matches because they've all been around the ***1/2-**** area all year. Mic work not included, but I'm only talking about in ring ability.

Oh, and as much as people might hate it..........Michaels IS a better worker than Angle.

I don't know. May be it's a bias somewhere, but I definately prefer Angle over Michaels.

May be it's because I've seen Michales have the same style for 10 years and six for Angle. (Wow - it's been six years already.)

The reason why I'd put some sort on emphasis on mic work is because it feels like a lot of the matches are the same thing, but with different (once again going back the WWE style everyone's been talking about), so I like seeing some segments and mic work, and I've always admired improv and mic work.

It's a sad day in wrestling when the only person I can tolerate on the microphone in WWE on a regular basis is JBL.

Kinda shows how shitty and non-existant mic skills are in WWE, especially when the same boring people get it (HHH, Angle, Michaels...)

:lol: Hey-hey. Don't knock it. When Bradshaw first started the JBL gimmick, I loved every minute when he was a mic. Whoever thought Bradshaw could be that good with the right gimmick?

Angle...please end this current storyline. It's not good, it's making everyone look bad, and Angle is worse on the mic right now because of it.

Probably just Vince McMahon and Jim Ross. JBL! JBL! BAH GAWD JBL!

Jim Ross...now there's someone who should be on the mic more. ;)

Remember when he sang the Good-Bye song to Eric Bischoff? (shudders)

I don't think I was discrediting this Misawa/Kobashi tape I have...i was merely saying what you are telling me to say, that it is not my cup of tea. If people like it, more power to them, it just wasn't my style. I merely said I felt it was spotty and head droppy. Two things I would say were pretty true about those matches I saw.

The "drop it" comment was meant only in a "drop the non base-less argument" portion. Opinions are great, and thats why we are here, to discuss our opinions about wrestling. however, opening a post with this nonsense:

Kinda sets me off on the wrong foot. Calling someone an 'all time great' in a entertainment performance based activity is totally up to the tastes and opinions of the individual. Now, Mad Dog then says "These are the faults I find with Angle...", and that is cool. That is a discussion. Almost everything in here is a discussion, and I'm glad to take part it in. Hope that clears up my "drop it" comment. My apologies to dynamite kido for offending him with my comments on Puro...no doubt he gets a little pissy defending it over the years.

I wasn't getting pissy defending it, but I just don't like people that don't watch it or understand it plain out bash it for no reason. I'm not saying that's what you did as you explained yourself. No problem....

I also forgot to mention this in my other post, don't forget Angle has had neck surgery recently. So, having that injury might knock him down a bit with his in-ring ability. So he's not that bad in-ring for having a neck injury and then getting the quick surgery, rather than the full surgery.

Bullshit... Liger had a fucking tumor in his brain and still wrestles, and according to MAd Dog, quite well.

Can't say I knew that.

Steve Austin had his entire body fucked up beyond belief (neck, back, knees), and was still able to have some good-great matches in 2001.

Might I add, WAAAAAY better than Angle can currently.