This was stolen from another board and I thought it'd make an interesting read for us here at DWB

Some interesting tidbits from Meltzer, from the Wrestling Classics board, in a thread talking about Survivor Series 1997.

On whether HHH knew and was in on it: "Of course he knew. He was the catalyst when he told Shawn, after Vince asked Shawn to lose in Montreal, and in return, Bret would put Shawn over in the four-way in Springfield on his last night, that Shawn should never put Bret over."

On making Shawn look like he wasn't in on it: "They ordered Michaels to act super pissed off in the ring, because he was going to be their new champion, and they recognized the distinct possibility that it wouldn't look good for their new champion to get his ass kicked on a live PPV in front of the world and then have the ex-champion quit on the spot knowing he'd be screwed.

That was the reason that Vince, when he suggested the Moolah-Richter cinching on a small package, was told in no uncertain terms that would be a disaster. Hart would know Michaels was in on it, and knowing the situation, there is little doubt Hart would break Michaels in two immediately before he could get out of the ring. The fake submission spot set up by Patterson (although it was not Patterson's idea, and when the person who was the real architect passes away I'm allowed to give the rest of the story) gave Shawn the plausible deniability. While Bret didn't believe him in the dressing room when he asked him, it wasn't until Undertaker (who didn't know ahead of time) told him a few weeks later that he knew for sure Shawn and HHH both knew in advance."

Why Doug Furnas told Meltzer he was pissed off about it: "He wasn't mad for Bret Hart, well, he was pretty mad about that, but it was Blade, Bret's 12-year-old son, that he was a lot madder about. He talked about how he was crying hysterically because of what they did, for real, to his father. He said you'd have to see it to understand how miserable certain people really were as human beings, to allow the son to be in the show (Vince allowed it, I'd guess it was Bret's idea but he also thought he was winning for Canada via DQ, Blade carried the Canadian flag) knowing what they were planning on doing. At that point, I think it's more than Julie Hart's business. Even without that story, it still is."

On Bret getting buried in WCW: "Regarding Bret not doing the "real world champion" gimmick in WCW, you have to remember that people who manipulated Eric weren't wanting him to get over, and certainly not get over in the manner Vince handed to them. That was the original idea, and it was dropped because Eric was talked out of it, and not by Bret Hart. Remember, he was put in a program with Flair, who they thought at the time was damaged goods. They did a shockingly high buy rate with a rushed three week program, and then the program was ended after one match. Then they were made a team, and before they had their first match as a team, both were taken off television.

Eric Bischoff spent too much money to want the Hart experiment to fail. Obviously, other people did and they were those who were able to influence him to make poor booking choices, Why else, when "Wrestling with Shadows" aired on television, did the company then take Hart off TV for a month?"

On some misconceptions about the incident: "How was Vince protecting his company?

Bret Hart had already agreed to lose the title four weeks later in Springfield, Massachusetts on PPV. It would be in a four-way match. It would be to Shawn Michaels, with Ken Shamrock and Undertaker as the other two. If Michaels would put Hart over, Hart was willing to put Michaels over. If Michaels wouldn't agree to put Hart over, and he didn't, then Hart would lose to shamrock or Taker (didn't matter which, he liked them both) in an elimination match and Michaels would pin that person to win the match and the title. It had all been agreed to. Even Bischoff was aware of it. Michaels walked out on doing the job for Hart at Mania that year, and several times before Montreal had flat out said he would never put Hart over, and this was when Hart was champion, and not leaving the company. Michaels also refused to put Davey Boy Smith over in England in September, which was a huge deal at the time. I remember being told ahead of time because Shawn wasn't doing jobs and bragging abuot it , how they were going to force the issue in England to show Shawn was a professional. Davey even dedicated the match to his sister who was dying of cancer. Then, Shawn refused to do the job and they came to Davey and asked him to drop the title or else Shawn would walk, for the good of the company. While a lot of people have portrayed Davey qutting WWF at the time as loyalty to Bret, and at the time, that was definitely part of it, he was a lot madder at being made a fool out of in his home country when he was promised the opposite.

The story about Bret Hart going to Nitro and throwing the belt in the garbage can was made up by Vince, after the fact, because the guys were on the verge of a revolt and he needed to come up with a story they would be sympathetic to.

I think one of the myths, and the movie "Wrestling with Shadows," in attempting to be a dramatic movie gave the impression, is that Montreal was Bret's last match in WWF. If that was the case, he should have lost and there is no argument in favor of anything else. The fact is, he was booked at house shows for another month with the company. It turned out to be his last match because he punched the owner of the company in the dressing room and at that point, couldn't very well come back.

If Bret hart was going to go to Nitro the next day, then why, when the next day came, was he not at Nitro? Nothing WCW could have done at the time could have been more dramatic then him showing up the next night. Because he was never going. His WWF contract didn't run out for another month. WWF had already filed an unfair practices suit against WCW. Vince had not breached Hart's contract beforehand, so if Hart showed up on Nitro, he and WCW would have been sued and no way would Hart have put himself in that position. Plus, and most importantly, for a guy who cared more than most about his image with the wrestlers, he'd have never left unprofessionally unless forced to. Once Vince breached in Montreal, why he didn't go to Nitro then, is because Vince still owed him $30,000 and he didn't want to give him the excuse not to pay it.

He was going to Raw in Cornwall, Ontario and was booked to do an interview that would turn him babyface, which is a key part of the story. One of the deals in him agreeing to go heel earlier in the year was that he would eventually turn back. One of the deals when Vince opened the door for him to leave was that he would get to leave as a babyface. While he was the babyface in the match with Michaels, he never turned and was only a face in Canada, where he never turned in the first place."

On Vince supposedly being worried that Bischoff would reneg on his promise to not announce signing Bret until after he lost the title: "The funny thing about that story is that when Bret asked Vince if he should ask Eric to postpone the announcement of him coming on Nitro, that it was Vince who told Bret it wasn't necessary. Bret told Vince it would be no problem to do so. Eric had Bret the week before and didn't make an announcement when he could have because Bret asked him to wait.

He was a lame duck champion in Montreal. Vince's people told the wrestlers on the Tuesday before Montreal about it. Keep in mind, the whole idea of screwing Bret didn't come until Wednesday night when Shawn told Vince he wasn't doing the job for Bret, and Vince blew his cork about this main event where both guys were refusing to lose to each other, and Shawn realized he had Vince by the balls because Vince couldn't do anything to him (karma took care of that) with Bret leaving. The WWE wrestlers then told the WCW wrestlers and everyone knew. So Vince, by revealing it early, was the one who actually got the word out while Bret and Bischoff both kept their mouths shut publicly as per the three-way agreement. Not to say I didn't know because anyone could read the Observer the week before Montreal and it's all there. Hart could have lost it at the house show in Madison Square Garden a week later if they didn't want to wait until Springfield, MA."

On the possibility of vacating the title: "I agree completely. There is no way Vince McMahon should have allowed Bret Hart to vacate the title when he was leaving.

That has nothing to do with this story other than saying nobody is an angel and it's wrong to portray them as such.

Bret's suggestion to vacate the title (hardly a demand, very low voice after Vince asked, what do you want to do and Bret said everyone knows, why don't we end on a high note tomorrow, blah blah blah and Vince agreed, of course with no intention of it happening) came on Sunday afternoon when he was in Montreal in the dressing room. The voice did not sound the slighest bit unreasonable. If Vince had said, I just can't have that, it would have been no problem. During the conversation, both talked as if the plan for him to lose it in the ring in Springfield was what both had agreed to do and nobody said or did anything to indicate that wouldn't happen until Vince agreed Bret could vacate it. VINCE NEVER ONCE ASKED OR BROUGHT UP BRET LOSING THAT NIGHT. He never said, you know what, we've got to do it this way (although Bret would not have agreed to do it for Shawn, whether he would have agreed to do it for shamrock or Austin that night I don't know and I don't want to guess but I could see that one going either way as he liked both of them and was very willing to lose to either--in fact, at one point, he specifically asked to lose to Austin). Of course, at that point, Vince is agreeing to everything Bret said to get him to lower his guard after several wrestlers told him not to go on his back for a two count (nobody warned him of the fake submission finish, which he fell into, which was, if something can be said for this, was the brilliance of why it almost worked) and the ref swore on the life of his kids that he wouldn't double-cross him. The screw job decision came the prior Wednesday when Michaels called up Vince at home and told him he would not do the job in Montreal in exchange to Bret losing to him directly in Springfield. Gerald Brisco was in Shawn Michaels' hotel room the night before trying to give him a crash course on blocking punches and escaping submissions to avert what they were really scared to death of, and that is their new champion getting his ass kicked for real on a live PPV by the guy they screwed who would then leave after being screwed. In the company's mind, that was the thing they were scared of, which is why Shawn had to pretend to be even madder than Bret when the finish came.

If Bret Hart would have demanded on the prior Wednesday that he vacate the title, refused any other suggestion, I would back Vince 100%. He did no such thing.

I would also back Vince 100% if it was not a common practice among his wrestlers at the time, Shawn, HHH, Austin, to get out of doing jobs that were both scripted and important to get new talent over. A practice that has continued on PPV main events to this day. If they wanted it on PPV, he had already agreed to the PPV. If they wanted it on live TV, he'd have agreed to live TV. He even suggested MSG and Fayetteville (a live Raw) as potential venues, and even said he'd lose to Steve Lombardi, if asked."

--Really interesting stuff...anyone want to guess who it is that Meltzer says came up with the sharpshooter spot but he can't reveal it until that person dies?

Earl Hebner.

Bleh... I'm warn out on arguing over this, since it only leads to Shawn Michaels bashing, which leads to Shawn Michaels verbal BJ's, which leads to the same old argument.

I bet the person that planned the finish was probably Vince Russo... OK, thats pretty random, but more creative than saying Brisco.

I'm glad this board doesn't have the Michaels apologists that other boards do.

Russo had nothing to gain by being involved in anyway in the Bret screw, and even if he had, this whole "sworn to secrecy" doesn't sound like a thing Vinny Ru would pull, A) Because he was a loud mouthed prick who didn't give a shit about any sense of loyalty and B) Because he's a born-again loud mouthed prick who didn't give a shit about any sense of loyalty, and probably is trying not to lie so he can get into heaven. Or maybe born-agains are allowed to lie about Montreal, as Shawn gets away with it.

It's Hebner. Hebner was a close personal friend of Bret's, and he needed a way to get Bret to drop the title and get out of the ring as quickly as he possibly could. Imagine if Hebner just made a fast count and Bret wasn't tied up in the Sharpshooter.

I'm saying it was Cornette.

I'd agree with it being Cornette.

Hebner.

Cornette loves to shoot and he hasn't mentioned it yet. Hebner was a friend of Bret's and wouldn't want it out that he took a major part in screwing his friend.

Shawn has come clean now.

Please, can we do away with mentioning Shawn's "Christianity". Being a Christian myself I hate it because it just comes off as an excuse for all of his past actions. While he's off the drugs and everything and it's a great thing , he's still being a backstabber and doing a lot of the shit he used to do in regards to putting people over. I know his type and let's just say I never like them.

I don't think that Corny would come out and admit being one of Meltz's sources. Although whoever this is obviously close with Dave. So that is my main reason for thinking it's Cornette.

Good point. You're right, it was Cornette.

I wonder if Furnas' part in this had anything to do with him not being a big player in US pro wrestling?

This could be VERY true. I never put two and two together on that.

Hebner swore on his childrens lives that nothing wrong would happen that night to Bret Hart.

I'm surprised Brian Hebner is still alive.

That is scummy, letting Bret's kid be involved, when you know what's about to go down. My hate for Vince is renewed.

I just realized... two of the three people mostly involved in this got karma right in the ass...

Earl Hebner: Hospitalized for several months around Wrestlemania time.

Shawn Michaels: Broke his back at the Rumble, and forced to retire for 4 1/2 years.

Vince McMahon: Just has to live with himself.

Well, two out of three ain't bad.

McMahon is wheel chair bound for a year though. And his spawn and roided up inlaw will probably run the company into the ground while he's out.

I apologize if I offended you. I don't mean to lump a whole group of people together, but Shawn seems like one of those people that "find Christ" and proceed to act holier than thou from that point on and pretend they never did anything wrong. Vinny Ru gives me that vibe as well. Two of my uncles pull this exact same act.

And I'm actually a huge fan of Shawn Michaels in the ring. :blink:

For the record, I WOULD stick up for HBK in the ring if someone was unfairly bashing him. But I wouldn't do it for him personally. There's no way to defend someone who's been a total dick in the business for almost his ENTIRE singles career.

Shawn is one of those people that "become a Christian" to try and get people to excuse their past bad behavior. When I look at Shawn I don't really see someone who's changed at all. He's still a backstabber and selfish which are not Christian attitudes.

Almost? He stabbed his tag partner in the back several months BEFORE his singles run began.

Even though he hasn't caused any problem since his "born-again" run began, he still hasn't put many people over cleanly.

Chris Benoit (if you count 3-ways) and Kurt Angle. Pretty short list of people to put over.

How do you know this stuff about Shawn's present attitude? From what I've seen, (and that's on camera) he's cleaned up his language, and doesn't include himself in questionable storylines.

Pretty brutal, doubting someone's Christianity based on internet rumours.

There are several things outside of that. His smug attitude over the Montreal thing in interviews recently. I might be wrong about it but from what I've seen of him since he became a Christian doesn't convince me he is one. Muscling in on the WMXX main event and just the fact that he's tended to bash people over the head with his faith in the past are also turnoffs to it.

And I've been going to church for a long time. You learn the tell all signs of a fake after awhile. Like I said I could be wrong but he rubs me the wrong way.

I don't want to derail this topic any further, but I'll just say, I doubt when God is passing out the tickets to Heaven, he's thinking, "Wait, he refused to job to Rikishi!"

You were the first to say - let's leave Shawn's Christianity out of this, and I think you had a good idea.

Fair enough. I was just explaining further but I shall now have to have you killed......

:ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r:

It's cool, but you gotta call of the ninjas...

Don't worry. They'll run across a bar on the way, get trashed and forget about you.

I would say that this topic should get back on track. If it turns into religion discussion.....it's locked.

Nah, I won't bring up the religious thing anymore.

To get this back on track. I've heard that the main people involved were Vince, JR, Cornette, Patterson, Michaels, HHH and Hebner.

So I would say Cornette, Patterson and JR are the most likely suspect to be that named source. I don't see JR being on of Meltzer's butt buddies so I think it's down to Patterson and Cornette.

I'd say Gerald Brisco before Cornette. Cornette was way more of a Bret Hart supporter than Shawn Michaels and spoke out several times against the immature antics of DX. Unless he was covering, I can't see Cornette coming up the with the sharpshooter finish. Plus, Cornette talks ALL THE FREAKING TIME. I somehow doubt he'd be able to keep that one a big secret.

Brisco on the other hand, completely 100% tows the company line and will go along with whatever Mister Mackman says. He is, IMO, the clear choice.

That was my big reservation with Cornette. The guy puts out a 4hour shoot tape monthly.

So if he always has something to say......then don't you think there's still stuff you haven't heard?

He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who could keep that kind of secret, which eliminates me picking Vince "Big Mouth" Russo.

There is a VERY good reason why Scrooge. He doesn't want Vince to find out he's been giving Dave info for years.

Oh... good point. (shuts up and becomes a DK ass kisser) Sorry LFV, you're FIIIIIIIRED~!