see this place is a little on the dead side, so lets put some life into it with the bs:

http://z11.invisionfree.com/wrestling_ko/i...p?showtopic=387

they'd be sassing our boy or not? those names can't be all legit.

How the hell is Doink not on that list?

it ain't '93

All bullshittin' aside, I'd say Marc Mero would be a legitimate addition to that list. People were just amazed at how much he improved, that year.

Edit: whattabout Brian Pillman, in early 1996 before his leg troubles?

That list lost credibility the minute I saw The Sandman and that spotmonkey Sabu on it.

You apparently know nothing of 95-96 Sabu. He was certainly one of the best workers in the world at the time, no doubt about it.

Shit like this always cracks me up. There's always smark hate for HBK since then for well known reasons, and it's all rightfully deserved. But to act like the guy isn't that great of a worker is fucking silly. He's one of the best WWE/F wrestlers of all time easily.

I figure I'd throw my two cents in and break down the list a bit.

As far as the list of AAA/CMLL workers goes, I can't say that I've seen or remember a lot of their work from the year. I can talk about those that I've seen enough of back then though.

AAA / CMLL:

Rey Mysterio Jr. - At this point Rey was one of the best workers in the world for sure. He was really coming into his own in 96 especially with his transition into WCW. I've always thought a lot of his work in Mexico though was a bit overrated. IMO, he wasn't above Michaels in 1996.

Psicosis - This may have been the best year of Psicosis's entire career. His stuff with Rey in Mexico was still fresh in eveyone's mind and he also made the transition to WCW like Mysterio.....only not as good. Definately not better than Michaels in 96.

Casas - N/A

Santo - This is one person that might have a legit claim in 96 to being better than HBK. It's close though.

Dandy - Hell no.

Juventud Guerrera - Juventud was a solid worker in 96, but would reach his prime in a year or so, once again.....not better than HBK.

Fuerza Guerrera - Nope.

Blue Panther - N/A

Apollo Dantes - N/A

Silver King - Nope.

Felino - N/A

Bestia Salvaje - N/A

Atlantis - N/A

Volador - N/A

Lizmark - N/A

Dos Caras - N/A

Cicloncito Ramirez - N/A

Damiancito El Guerrer - N/A

WWF / WCW / ECW:

Austin - He was hitting his stride in 96 and I would say that he's a good choice, but it's close.

Bret Hart - IMO, Bret was still a better worker than Michaels even in 96.

Benoit - Benoit in 96 was an absolute monster and was definately a better worker than HBK.

Eddy Guerrero - Easily said that in 96 I would consider Eddy better than Michaels, but once again.....not by much.

Malenko - Malenko was one of the top 5 guys in the world in 96 to me. I would say that it's close, but I would give the nod to Malenko.

Finlay - No way.

Regal - Let the fanboys jerk off, no fucking way.

Foley - In 96 Foley was good....damn good. But I would put Michaels a few marks ahead of him here.

Scorpio - No fucking way.

Steve Williams - In Japan most likely, in the US though.....no fucking way.

Vader - Ditto as Williams.

Dan Kroffat - Great worker who was easily on the downside in 96. Nope.

All Japan / New Japan:

Misawa - Fuck yeah, way ahead of HBK.

Kawada - Easily.

Kobashi - Yep.

Taue - More than likely.

Akiyama - Close, but I would say that Akiyama was ahead of HBK but barely in 96.

Hashimoto - Not in 1996.

Liger - Fuck yeah.

Ohtani - 96 Ohtani.....yep.

Kanemoto - Nope.

Ultimo Dragon - Close, but no.

Here's the rest of the names in the first post. I'm just going to group them....

Definately better than HBK in 96....

- Great Sasuke
- Takada
- El Samurai
- Sabu
- Sandman

No fucking way.....



- Orihara
- Fujinami
- Anjoh
- Yamazaki
- Ishikawa
- Fujiwara
- Han
- Tamura
- Kohsaka
- Sano
- Kakihara
- Takayama
- Sakuraba
- Yoshihisa Yamamoto
- Otsuka
- Heavy Metal
- Villano III
- Satanico
- Super Astro
- Solar
- Texano
- Jerry Estrada
- Nagai
- Kanehara
- Emilio Charles Jr.
- Severn
- Jamie Dundee
- Sandman
- Eaton
- Dave Taylor
- Shocker
- Dr. Wagner, Jr.

lol,, be honest, you got no idea what you're talking about with the shooters and mexicans

I'm honest, and that's the era of Puro that I'm most familiar with. I'm just not the type to blow people that are involved with lucha (because I think the majority of it sucks) and I'm more than familiar with the puro shit of the time.

Also, I'd love to see what you know about the topic as well instead of being a smartass with nothing to add to the discussion.

Other than Benoit, nobody had a better '96 than Psicosis. The guy was just on fire that year.

Guys I'd agree were better than Shawn in '96:
Mysterio
Psicosis
Santo
Blue Panther
Volador
Bret
Benoit
Eddy
Malenko
Dr. Death
Kobashi
Misawa
Kawada
Ishikawa
Liger
Ohtani
Sasuke
Takada
Samurai
Sabu
TAKA
Hokuto
Kansai


Anyone who thinks Alexander Otsuka was better than Shawn Michaels in 1996 is smoking some serious shit.

Also, I don't think Akiyama was quite at HBK's level in '96. Now Akiyama in '98 vs. HBK in '96 is a different story...

can't grasp mexican tumbling is one thing but i'd like to know how one could disregard 99 percent of the shoot stylists.

Because shoot stylists are bullshit for the most part. Not saying that they aren't incredibly skilled but it doesn't mean you necessarily put on the greatest pro wrestling matches.

I also easily grasp lucha, it's just not my cup of tea. I've always leaned toward Puro anyways.

Totally agree with Metro about Otsuka too. Also I would put Akiyama ahead of HBK in 96 due to the fact that up until that point Akiyama had been in some EXCELLENT tag matches. Plus, I put the AJ workers ahead of almost anyone at this time period due to the way they worked. Most people would die under those conditions.

1996 was just such a good year for wrestling outside of the U.S.

The big 4 of All Japan were running on all cylinders, the New Japan juniors were still going strong at that point and Ohtani and Benoit were having one of, if not their best years, joshi and lucha, while not at their peaks, still were having good years, Hokuto and Psicosis especially, Michinoku Pro was getting off the ground, etc.

AAA / CMLL:

- Rey Mysterio Jr. - yes
- Psicosis - yes
- Casas - hell no
- Santo - maybe
- Dandy - hell no
- Juventud Guerrera - 2 years too early
- Fuerza Guerrera - 2 years too late
- Blue Panther - no
- Apollo Dantes - no
- Silver King - fuck no
- Felino - no
- Bestia Salvaje - n/a
- Atlantis - no
- Volador - np
- Lizmark - no
- Dos Caras - fuck no, way too old
- Cicloncito Ramirez - n/a
- Damiancito El Guerrero - n/a

WWF / WCW / ECW:

- Austin - yes
- Bret Hart - yes
- Benoit - yes
- Eddy Guerrero - didn't hit his stride with U.S. style till the heel turn in 97
- Malenko - yes
- Finlay - no
- Regal - no
- Foley - not even close
- Scorpio - you're kidding with this lazy turd right?
- Steve Williams - been going downhill since 94
- Vader - same level, maybe slightly better
- Dan Kroffat - past his prime

All Japan / New Japan:

- Misawa - yes
- Kawada - yes
- Kobashi - yes
- Taue - yes
- Akiyama - no
- Hashimoto - sucky 96
- Liger - yes but 96 wasn't a banner year for Liger
- Ohtani - yes
- Kanemoto - hell no
- Ultimo Dragon - yes

AJW / JWP / GAEA / LLPW:

- Aja Kong - n/a
- Hokuto - n/a
- Kansai - n/a
- Mayumi Ozaki - n/a


FMW / IWA / M-Pro / WAR:

- Tenryu - no
- Gran Hamada - too old
- TAKA Michinoku - not even close
- Great Sasuke - nope, blew too many spots
- Orihara - haha... no
- Dick Togo - no
- Fujinami - no

UWFi / RINGS / BattlArts:

- Takada - maybe
- Anjoh - no
- Yamazaki - no
- Ishikawa - no
- Ikeda - no
- Fujiwara - no
- Han - no
- Tamura - no
- Kohsaka - no
- Sano - no
- Kakihara - no
- Takayama - no
- Sakuraba - no
- Yoshihisa Yamamoto - no

*Maybe:

- Otsuka
- Heavy Metal
- Villano III
- Satanico
- Super Astro
- Solar
- Texano
- Jerry Estrada
- El Samurai
- Nagai
- Kanehara
- Toyota
- Emilio Charles Jr.
- Severn
- Jamie Dundee
- Sabu
- Sandman
- Eaton
- Dave Taylor
- Shocker
- Dr. Wagner, Jr.

No one in the last group was on the same level in 1996.

Maybe he wasn't quite on par with Shawn in '96, but the next year he really took off and came into his own. TAKA was top 5 in the world in '97. Shawn in '96 wasn't even top 25.

Taka wasn't there in 96. He went from above average to excellent quickly. But for most of 96 he was a tier or two below what Michaels was.

I'd say Michaels was hovering around maybe a 16-18 slot in 1996. He was benefitting heavily from some top notch workers getting lazy and the next gen not quite being there yet. So it was a nice time frame for an overrated talent like Michaels to soar the chart.

lol

Negro Casas has never impressed me on any level. Same with El Dandy. He's been decent from stuff I've seen him in but I'd never say he was an elite talent any year of his career. Santo is a very hard call. He's so up and down as far as match quality that I don't feel safe saying one way or another with him.

Who are you to doubt El Dandy?

What is this, DVDVR 5 years ago?

I'd say Santo was better than Michaels in '96. Wasn't it '96 where Santo and Psicosis were tearing it up nightly for a couple months?

casas, dandy, santo were the top guys in the promotion around that time period.

have you seen:

'96 3-way
'97 cibernetico
'97 casas v santo

3 of the best matches ever

Like I said. Santo is a tough one to call. He can be all over the place.

i'm curious to know what that means. i've never seen a bad santo performance. See below

Not exactly sure how Casas and Dandy are no's and hell no's respectively while Santo's a maybe whilst the three were ALL involved in the double face/heel turn of Santo in 1996. While not a career year for any of the three (in careers full of greatness) Santo's heeling and Casas totally flipping the script on everything people knew about the two wrestlers prior to that year are what basically kept Mexican wrestling afloat right before and during the mass exodus of luchadors to WCW.

You have El Hijo Del Santo, easily the most popular, recognizable wrestler in his country pulling a Hogan at Bash at the Beach, picking up entire rows of chairs and dropping them on foes. In 1996, like most years, Santo's easily one of the best bumpers, high flyers, mat workers, charasmatic, psychologically sound workers in the entire world, facing off against two of the very same in Casas and Dandy, with a 6man tag with Bestia and Scorpio (neither of which being slouches) that trumps ALOT of matches that took place in 1996, and we know what kind of year 1996 was.

Shawn Michaels is my favorite wrestler, I'm not some kind of blind hater, but the world was a big f'n place in 1996.

Dr. Death had the WON MOTY in 1996. So whilst it wasn't 1994 anymore, it wasn't exactly 2001 either, knowumsayin'?

1996 is probably Akiyama's career year (talk about peaking early), not sure that any match stands up to RWTL finals, ever, anywhere. So it's not exactly a no contest. Helps that he was working with 6-7 world class dudes at the time.

Hashimoto had the Takada match in 1996. Which was better than . . . well alot of stuff. HBK doesn't have anything that good. Hashimoto/Choshu from the G-1 is probably the best easily identifiable battle of wills in all of wrestling.

Takada has the Hashimoto match, ditto.

Anjoh might have been top 10 heels on the planet at that point.

Again this isn't the HBK is the worst wrestler ever thread. Dudes an awesome wrestler and one of the all time greats IMO. Not like I handpicked every single worker on that list. But consideration's consideration. 1996 was a great year for wrestling, one of the best. Tough company. Workers better than HBK in like 2005 or something might be alot shorter.

I'm not a Michaels fan by any means but I still think he was in the lower quarter of of the top 20 in 1996.

Speaking of which, did Shawn do anything better than the Mankind match in '96? I'm drawing a blank, but I'm thinking that was his best match that year (and it is pretty damn good, just somewhat overrated), unless I'm completely forgetting something.

I think the Vader match was better but was ruined by the stupid ending.

I liked the Foley match, Vader match, SID match, Diesel match ummm . . . I mean there's plenty in 1996 to like. Parts of the Ironman were great I thought.

I thought the Ironman match was crap and if you wanted to prove there was a lot of better workers in 1996 the Ironman match is the quickest and easiest way to attack him on it.

Empashis on PARTS.

Then again, for two guys purposely trying to have the worst match they could with each other, it's quite something

I don't know if I'd say for sure that anything was better but he had a few nifty matches with Bulldog in 96 too.

The last 15-20 minutes of that Iron Man match are awesome. The first 40 is pretty skippable.

HBK had a lot of great matches in 1996, but I haven't seen enough wrestling from the rest of the world around that time to declare he was the best. Arguably the best in the WWF, but otherwise I'm too ignorant to really say.

Haha. Ah, the good old "is Shawn Michaels actually good or not" debate. I think I'm one of the few Canadian smarks that actually likes Michaels and Bret Hart equally. I really didn't watch much of anything but WWE and I was just a kid in '96 so I'm terribly unqualified to comment on this thread.

Maybe I should go start a screwjob thread somewhere...? Haha.