Title: 4/3 Worker Poll
dynamite kido - April 3, 2006 06:11 PM (GMT)
I figured that this one would drum up some more discussion and maybe be a bit more split than last weeks. So what do you guys think? Who was the better worker out of Bret/Steamboat?
Scrooge McSuck - April 3, 2006 06:17 PM (GMT)
Oh wow, this one is going to be a lot tough. I can't think of many (if any) bad Steamboat matches I've seen, but even though I've seen my fair share of bad Bret matches, I have to go with Bret.
Both men were great wrestlers, but Bret had I believe a "deeper" formula for matches (minus the "5 moves of doom" nonsense), and everything he did was crisp and perfect looking. From punches that looked legit to the perfect snap of suplexes, it just all looked great.
That's really the only way I can make a choice. Both could work around various styles of limited workers, both could pull off the "really pissed off babyface character" and make the match great without using their basic formulas, and neither were the greatest talkers.
whitemilesdavis - April 3, 2006 06:23 PM (GMT)
No doubt who I'm going with here; Steamboat. I think he is the best in ring performer ever. I find his mannerisms in the ring, and innate charisma to be far more exciting than Bret. His career long feud with Flair produced better stuff than anything I could come up with for Bret. Steamboat's lasting legacy is that he was an decent man, and a respected worker among his peers. Bret's legacy is Montreal.
Scrooge McSuck - April 3, 2006 06:27 PM (GMT)
When I think of Bret Hart, I think of a loyal worker who was one of the few bright-spots in the WWF during their goofy cartoon era of 1991-1996, and half of one of the more entertaining tag teams of the 80's in the WWF. Montreal only comes up when I think of Shawn Michaels or watch current WWE television when it's shoved in my face every other week.
Another point I forgot to mention: Bret Hart was a pretty good heel and I believe cut much more entertaining promos in that role, while Steamboat was a career babyface, so he wasn't as "complete" in that sense of performing. He could play a pissed off guy wanting revenge, but he's never worked as a heel.
dynamite kido - April 3, 2006 06:32 PM (GMT)
I personally love both guys so this one was hard for me as well. But maybe not as hard as it's going to be with others. I went Bret all the way. Steamboat was a GREAT worker, but generally he was the type of worker that could ONLY play the super babyface role and sometimes his selling would be a BIT too comical. Then again this is more of a preference thing as I think Bret was ALWAYS more realistic with his selling. Plus, Bret could go as a heel too. Steamboat never was a heel EVER. I will agree that Steamboat has Bret in the natural charisma department, but nonetheless Bret never went backwards as his career declined....................Steamboat did. Also there is something major that Bret was money at that Steamboat was good at............but not quite up to Bret's level. That being making untalented guys look like gold. Steamboat was good at this too...............but a few rungs below what Bret could do.....
whitemilesdavis - April 3, 2006 06:35 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE |
When I think of Bret Hart, I think of a loyal worker who was one of the few bright-spots in the WWF during their goofy cartoon era of 1991-1996, and half of one of the more entertaining tag teams of the 80's in the WWF. Montreal only comes up when I think of Shawn Michaels or watch current WWE television when it's shoved in my face every other week.
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Or ANYTIME Bret is interviewed for ANY reason.
| QUOTE |
| Another point I forgot to mention: Bret Hart was a pretty good heel and I believe cut much more entertaining promos in that role, while Steamboat was a career babyface, so he wasn't as "complete" in that sense of performing. He could play a pissed off guy wanting revenge, but he's never worked as a heel. |
I will give you that point, and will also conceed that Bret was better on the stick, period. Not enough for me to put him over Steamboat as an overall performer.
whitemilesdavis - April 3, 2006 06:38 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE |
| I will agree that Steamboat has Bret in the natural charisma department, but nonetheless Bret never went backwards as his career declined....................Steamboat did. |
Here is one point I will completely disagree with. Steamboat was a great worker even until his injury forced him into retirement. He was still having great matches consistently in the early nineties, while Bret's stint in WCW was nothing special, whatsoever.
Scrooge McSuck - April 3, 2006 06:43 PM (GMT)
You can make a case with Bret's WCW run that they (the booking team) failed at everything they did with him. He would show up, turn heel and face every 15 minutes, wrestle for 3 minutes, disappear for a few weeks, lather, rinse, repeat.
It's kind of hard to do something when the bookers are telling you to do about 50 different things that contradict each other, and can't decide who the hell you have an alliance with. One week he's Hogan's buddy, the next he isn't, one week he's wrestling as a super babyface, the next he's a dirty rotten heel.
TheGreatWhiteChoate - April 3, 2006 06:57 PM (GMT)
Tough call again this week, but I went with Steamboat. As great as Bret Hart is, he never absolutely blew me away in the same way that Steamboat could. You can make cases for Bret being better at cutting promos (he was), but I agree with WMD, that's not enough to put him over Steamboat for me.
whitemilesdavis - April 3, 2006 07:14 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Scrooge McSuck @ Apr 3 2006, 02:43 PM) |
You can make a case with Bret's WCW run that they (the booking team) failed at everything they did with him. He would show up, turn heel and face every 15 minutes, wrestle for 3 minutes, disappear for a few weeks, lather, rinse, repeat.
It's kind of hard to do something when the bookers are telling you to do about 50 different things that contradict each other, and can't decide who the hell you have an alliance with. One week he's Hogan's buddy, the next he isn't, one week he's wrestling as a super babyface, the next he's a dirty rotten heel. |
I would agree with completely, however, you can also say that any bad run Steamboat had was due to bad booking. He was never a bad performer, but Vince did have a bit of a vendetta against him.
Scrooge McSuck - April 3, 2006 07:18 PM (GMT)
In 1991 when he was "The Dragon", I agree. Steamboat did the best he could with what he was working with, but he didn't have anything close to mind blowing matches on T.V, and was usually weighed down with crap like the Warlord, Iron Sheik, Haku, etc. etc.
whitemilesdavis - April 3, 2006 07:22 PM (GMT)
I actually started doubting him during that period, but then he gets back to WCW, and *magic* he's a worker again. Steamboat just wasn't cut out to work for Vince. The two just didn't mix at all. At first glance, you'd think the same about Bret, but that ended up working out for a long time.
dynamite kido - April 3, 2006 07:46 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE |
| Here is one point I will completely disagree with. Steamboat was a great worker even until his injury forced him into retirement. He was still having great matches consistently in the early nineties, while Bret's stint in WCW was nothing special, whatsoever |
This is my fault, I should've explained. It had nothing to do with Steamboat's work. THAT never really declined. It was more of a Bret started at the prelim level and worked up from there. At the end of his career Bret was working on top. Steamboat worked his way up, then on top, then back down the card. So basically Bret had more longevity as a main eventer and that's the point that I was trying to make.
Personally I always found Steamboat to be a rather OVERRATED performer. Now, I'm not saying at all that he's not one of the greatest of all time............but I'm saying that plenty of people thing he's the greatest worker ever and that's a bit much IMO.
Bret on the other hand was UNDERRATED as a worker until he hit main event status for the most part. People weren't talking about him as the next coming of workrate Christ when he was generally in a tag team or when he just first went single.
But I would say that generally the fact that Bret could put on the style of matches that he did at the time he did was a major factor as well. Because of Bret the WWE ended up changing a lot of what it did on a regular basis of in ring work. Because of Bret the "smaller" athlete was allowed to work quick, athletic matches. Steamboat wrestled in the WWE and wasn't. Now, that's no fault of Steamboat whatsoever, but it's something that SHOULD give Bret an advantage.
jamiegeist - April 3, 2006 08:38 PM (GMT)
Pretty much every point has been made and brought out here that I would say as well. To me, both guys are absolutely wonderful at what they did, but it comes down to a simple personal preference to me.
When two guys are pretty much the best, I have no choice to go with what I "like better", and I like Bret's style better. I love everything about Bret Hart's in ring style. I love his stupid half-open mouth while he punches, the face-first turnbuckle bump, his suplex (which I still maintain is the best ever in wrestling -- just perfect form, everytime), and just his brilliant fusing of "wrestling" and "entertainment".
Vince continually has called Bret the best "storyteller" in wrestling, and I really agree with that. He has had some great people acrossed from him to get to the title through some brilliant matches (Hennig, Owen, Austin, Taker, HBK) but thats the way it goes. I mean, shit, Steamboat had Flair, Flair, Flair, and Flair.
Honestly, this is like picking which of your 2 kids you love better. Although I will confess that my Steamboat knowledge is very limited, especially compared to Bret. I grew up with Bret. I discovered Steamboat much later. And still am.
smkelly13 - April 3, 2006 10:35 PM (GMT)
Bret Hart, hands down.
Ricky may have had some of the greatest matches (Flair and Savage) but that's about all ever did. He never really made me say "Sweet dude, Ricky Steamboat is on TV, I gotta see this." Hart did. He especially did towards the end of his WWF career, amazing heat, promos, matches.
He can play a convincing babyface, and a dickheaded heel. He's the complete package.
prof_plague - April 4, 2006 09:09 PM (GMT)
I was going to go with Steamboat, but I have to go with Hart. Hart is a better worker because he can wrestle the most random people and still have a good chemistry in the ring. He's had good matches with Bigelow, Owen Hart, Curt Hennig, Kevin Nash, Undertaker, British Bulldog, Shawn Michaels, blah-blah-blah. And when he does wrestle the same person more than once, it doesn't feel like you're watching the same match. Hart had also worked well, and gotten over, by being face and heel (at the same, no less); Steamboat I've only seen work as a top face.