HIGH-larious. Grisham is like the kid who gets upset when no one passes him the ball in basketball because he sucks, then cries and takes it back to go home.

What's Byte this?

...WWE's call-in show they put up on WWE.com for the last 5 years?

Yeah, gotta love when he can't even present a logical argument. It's especially funny considering the TNA chant that happened during the end segment on Raw.

Was that what they were chanting? I kinda fell a sleep watching HBK/Vince ego-stroke II: Electric Boogaloo.

I could have sworn that I heard a TNA chant at some point during the show, but I could not remember when. I thought it was at a point where Vince made a comment that since WCW went under, there isn't anywhere else for a wrestler to work besides for him.

It's true, though. TNA for all it's pros is still a glorified indy promotion like ECW was, and that's hardly somewhere to go, since they already have a over-sized roster for such little TV time. TNA can't hire everyone WWE fires.

Looks like somebody missed the sarcasm train.....

I thought you were serious, since I doubt many of us here actually listen to it. (other than the Warrior episode, I haven't bothered with it in the last 3 years)

I occasionally watch Byte This if the guest/topic looks interesting... so only about two or three times a year.

I wonder what Todd Grisham would have thought about my sarcasm.

Plus, I find it funny that he knows what TNA is, but doesn't know how to pronounce Jushin "Thunder" Liger.

Or that Eddie and Benoit were celebrating in the ring at WM 20, not Malenko and Benoit.

Good point....

I can only imagine how brutally bad he said "Great Sasuke", since I don't have the courage to listen to his commentary track. $20 says he pronounced it "Suzuki" or something else like that.

Bullcrap.

Did ECW have a major financial backer like Panda?

Did ECW have the support of a national network, even throwing in money to insure they get big named stars?

Give it up Scrooge. I'm not a fan of TNA's present direction, but it's not ALL negative.

Who said any of that? They're an Indy promotion that has a shitty time slot and a cult following.

See also: ECW

I never said a thing about money.

TNA has well produced dvds in national retailers.

TNA has a line of action figures in national retailers.

TNA has had, and will have future prime time specials on a major cable network.

Name any other wrestling promotion not called WWE that can boast this type of exposure in North America.

TNA. Is. Not. An. Indy!

1. They hold shows in the same arena (a.k.a they never travel outside of Universal Studios)

2. They don't sell tickets except for PPV's (which they've only started doing), so TV tapings are all papered crowds.

3. They don't have restrictive contracts, and if someone wants to work with WWE, the TNA contracts preventing it hold no water.

4. They have attendances of around 800-1000 people for all of their shows, which sounds like ECW to me.

5. They only hold 3 shows a month (2 taping and 1 PPV).

6. ECW also had toys and video games. They were still Indy.


I'd rather buy "ROH isn't Indy" since they at least travel (and make money), even though they still are. Nice try though, Rowe.

3. They don't have restrictive contracts, and if someone wants to work with WWE, the TNA contracts preventing it hold no water.

This is more crap. You have no idea of what you are talking about. TNA has every right (and has) held their talent off of other shows. Remember the RF situation? If yuo have one piece of legal backing about TNA having weak contracts, use it now. If not, drop it.

4. They have attendances of around 800-1000 people for all of their shows, which sounds like ECW to me.

ECW had a stronger, more loyal following than TNA could imagine right now, but that has nothing to do with being an indy.

6. ECW also had toys and video games. They were still Indy.

What about the major financial backer, and network throwing in money, too? Indy is short for independant. How can TNA be independant, if they are backed by other sponsors?


I'd rather buy "ROH isn't Indy" since they at least travel (and make money), even though they still are. Nice try though, Rowe.

So Oprah, SNL, Seinfeld.....are all indy tv shows? None of them travel, their audiences are papered, and the reactions are even canned. How did they make money? Advertising. Oh yeah, the same way TNA has an opportunity to make money. ECW never had that opportunity.

You have no arguement Scrooge. Say you hate TNA. Fine. But your rediculous gripes against them are getting old.

1. They hold shows in the same arena (a.k.a they never travel outside of Universal Studios)

Who really cares if all of their shows are held at the same place or not? For quite a while WWE aired Raw from the same building week in and week out. Oh, and cutting down on tv tapings by doing it all at once is something WWE and WCW both incorporated in the past. Sure, TNA does not tour, but that is due to it not being a profitable venture. WWE cancels house shows left and right because they don't sell enough tickets.

2. They don't sell tickets except for PPV's (which they've only started doing), so TV tapings are all papered crowds.

Right now TNA is not counting on ticket sales to make their money. They are counting on PPV revenue, merchandise sales, and continued growth in exposure and popularity.

3. They don't have restrictive contracts, and if someone wants to work with WWE, the TNA contracts preventing it hold no water.

Which is why so far no one under TNA contract has even tried going to WWE. The exception would be Kid Kash, who was released from his contract first.

4. They have attendances of around 800-1000 people for all of their shows, which sounds like ECW to me.

You know what else does that kind of attendance... WWE house shows and sometimes Smackdown tv tapings don't do much better than that.

5. They only hold 3 shows a month (2 taping and 1 PPV).

Out of those three shows, they get four one hour tv episodes and a three hour pay-per-view. WCW and WWE have done similar things in the past.

6. ECW also had toys and video games. They were still Indy.

I would actually argue that ECW had risen above the "indy" level in terms of their exposure and popularity by the time they had the games and toys. Besides, the TNA figures are by far a better quality than the ECW toys ever hoped to be.

I'd rather buy "ROH isn't Indy" since they at least travel (and make money), even though they still are. Nice try though, Rowe.

Ring of Honor is an indy company, but they are also the third largest wrestling company in North America.

MLW had finanical backers, so that doesn't make them Not-Indy, despite doing 1 show a month, drawing low attendance, and a small fan-base out of 1 primary location?

TNA is above super indy for a very easy reason. Guys like Sting will work for the promotion and would never have worked for ECW. TNA's production values alone puts them above any indy fed out there. Plus they've been on national tv for twice as long as ECW ever was in only a quarter of the time and ECW was considered to be a national promotion by the end.

And let's put the TNA contract dispute to rest. Stop listening to people that say the WWF can pick guys off at will. The contracts obviously hold water because TNA told the WWF to fuck off over the ECW show and none of their talent appeared. Frankie Kazarian is the only person to jump while still under contract and that's because TNA let him go.

If the contracts held no water you would've seen the WWF gutting the roster when the Spike Tv deal became no because it's what they've done to weaker threats like the XWF.

But ECW still traveled. TNA is based in 1 location for years at a time. Just because you have a TV deal doesn't make you a national promotion, otherwise the 3 local promotions that I watched for a week could be called that too.

The contracts still don't prevent people from working anywhere else, though. I've seen plenty of indy... er.. "Independent" promotions use Petey Williams, Chris Sabin, A.J. Styles, and various other guys all the time. You're telling me they need TNA's permission to do this?

It is my understanding that TNA contracts secure the superstar to appear for TNA when TNA needs them. The contracts allow superstars to appear for ROH and for other independent companies, but TNA can stop them. It is also my understanding that TNA contracts do not allow their stars to appear for WWE whatsoever.

Besides, the only TNA guy to jump to WWE while under contract, Frankie Kazarian, quit after only appearing on television for a month.

That's different than the WWF. Even WWF talent appears on indy shows from time to time. And if TNA decided they don't want their guys on a show they'll pull them. If TNA decided tomorrow to pull their guys off of RoH they'd do it.

And TNA has travelled. They did a tour in India and in Australia recently. And drawing 800-1000 is pretty impressive in one place especially when fans travel from across the country to attend. RoH typically only does the lower end of TNA shows after Joe lost the title.

Plus they have a sponsor paying them around $200,000 a month. No indy, not even ECW could pull that off.

Yeah, that's true. I think WWE's rule for their contracted workers appearing on indy shows is that it can only be a once in a while thing and that it cannot be a televised event. This is why Tommy Dreamer could show up occasionally on ROH shows when he was still active on the Raw roster.

Another WWE example... Jerry Lawler appeared on MLW, but once they put it on TV (a match vs. Funk), WWE jerked him off the WarGames card, because MLW broke their promise that they wouldn't televise his match.

Basically only part-time workers or guys they have nothing for are allowed to work outside the company, as long as they give notice to WWE first, and they clear it with the promotion in question. But this isn't an all the time thing.


Edit: TNA didn't travel. They only sent like 2 guys to those shows (Sonjay Dutt and Simon Diamond. SMELL THE MAIN EVENT TALENT!) over in Asia or whatever. The australia thing I never heard of, but it was probably the same 2-3 people that TNA hardly uses in a prominent role.

Actually, I think it was Jarrett. I know he (and other TNA'ers) were active in the short lived WWA promotion.

WWA folded and combined their titles with TNA on that show, I think.

World: Sting vs. Jeff Jarrett (Sting made his first TNA appearence 4-5 weeks later)
X-Division/Cruiseweight: Sabin v. Lynn v. Kazarian v. Swinger (only Sabin and Lynn were full-timers in TNA at that point)

Undercard: midgets, Rick Steiner vs. Someone else, Konnan vs. Devon Storm, and Sabu vs. Joe E. Legend. Only Konnan at the time was in TNA. Sabu came in shortly after, as did Legend.

Oh. Well then... I dunno. My bad.

You had a keen eye on it though, because looking on paper, almost all of them were in TNA at some point, and most on a regular schedule around that time.

Good to know I'm not insane then. Maybe McManus is back with another promotion, because I'm pretty sure they said on Impact last week it was Gail and JJJ going to Austraila...

Jarrett's the NWA World Champion. He has to do tours. He's mexico all the time.

WWA was just pathetic in the end. They were running Sting/Luger as their main events for the last couple of PPVs. But then Nathan Jones did win their world title at one point.

Scott Steiner vs. Nathan Jones - Feel the pain. Really, couldn't they come up with something worse? How about a crippled midget vs. Buff Bagwell?

They were doing Scott Steiner vs. Brian Lawler on a bunch of their early shows. Those PPVs consistently would piss me off as they'd have some great looking cruiser matches, I'd order and then the match would be 4 minutes. Bastards.

You keep taking one point rather than the whole. Though MLW had SOME financial backing (not nearly the level of TNA), they didn't have a NATIONAL tv show. They didn't have a network behind them helping pay their workers, and no supplement company was shucking out $200,000/ month to be on their DVD's. Despite all this, MLW still made an impact in their short lifespan. They had some smaller crowds, but some in the 1500 range as well.

If you can be seen fairly easily throughout the nation, you are a national promotion. The local promotions you speak of can not be found on my basic cable package. Big difference, and I think you know that.

Yes, the answer is yes. TNA pulled thier talent from ROH for a period of time, and could do it again anytime they want. Since they only run a few nights a month, they realize that they can keep their talent happy by allowing them to work elsewhere.

I think I'm in an argument I can't win, so I'll just say you're right, but I still think it's a debatle topic wether or not TNA is an independent or national promotion, since they have independent workers (minus working WWE, of course), but have a national TV deal. How about a Nationendent? :D

To me it is simple. They're a "National" promotion for pretty much one reason: they have a National Cable TV deal that is widely available on most basic cable packages.

No one else can claim that, other than WWE.

ECW really didn't go National until TNN, because you couldn't see them unless you had DirectV or some other satellite to catch the SunShine Network and shit like that.