I won't complain about much this time, but I was just waiting for the return of the not-so Amazing Red. TNA has a hard on for the guy, despite botching more spots than he hits. He's only marginably better than the Maximos.

And the point of the White Sox guy was... what, exactly?

That looks like pure crap. I'm not even sure where TNA is headed right now.

Alrite, Red has dropped off severely, but let's not get TOO crazy here.....

Yes, I would agree with Scrooge on this one. Red showed promise, got a knee injury and wrestled on it..........and now he's fucking god awful.

It's not like TNA has pushed him once it was learned that he was never coming back at 100%.

Do promotions ever learn that only the people wrestling should be wrestlers? (I give exception to Andy Kaufman though.) OK, Torborg - you better do something to prove me wrong.

He can't do what he once did, but he still has flashes of brilliance. To be quite honest, the only thing I've seen with him post-knee injury is the clusterfuck of a 6-man mayhem at the March 04 ROH show, his street fight with Teddy Hart at a JAPW show in 04, and a random smattering of tag matches with Chris Sabin in TNA. In those instances, he hasn't been amazing or even good, but he's been passable as a little guy to beat up on, bump, and get the crowd behind him. Even with his limited spots and next to zero offense, that's more positives than either Maximo could ever imagine of bringing to a match.

I'm not defending Red as much as I'm underestimating your guys's appreciation of the pure sucktitude of the Maximos.

The only Red match I've ever seen that I got into was him challenging AJ Styles for the X title in October 2002.

Ever see his match with Lowki from Road to the Title? Incredibly spotty and choreographed, but damn fun.

For fucks sake Red IS a Maximo.

Spotty, terrible, and unwatchable. I admit, I liked Red preinjury........but now, he's on the shitlevel of the Maximos.

Ok....... I'm soooo lost. TNA was running beautifully until the last PPV, and now I'm so confused.

1) The Diamonds in the Rough beat Raven? The Guys with their boots to the sky? They beat Raven? If I were him, I'd fucking leave. That's just horrible. I know there is three of them, but man is that bad.

2) TORBORG IS MISERABLE. Cross promotion with other sports DOES NOT work.

3) WTF? Jarrett & Gayda? Give me a fucking break

4) They seriously need to stop overbooking the last match. It ruins the night

At least they aren't ruining the Abyss vs. Sabu build up

They really need some consistency storyline wise if they ever want to compete. But oh well.

Not to say I told you so, but for weeks leading up to this, I was noticing little cracks in their storylines and logic and thus was called a WWE fanboy. Now it all exploded in 1 show.

Edit: Wait... wrong message board. :P

Losing to The Diamonds was probably Raven's idea. He's done the same shit before.. in 1999 in WCW, he was booked to have everyone pin him, even literally asking for the pin in one match. Part of his lame-ass gimmick.

Raven sucks, by the way. The only thing he ever had going for him was that he was one of the first to latch onto (and successfully pull-off) the grunge gimmick. Now that's only.... what, about 12 years old?

Raven is a great talker, and that's why I like him. His matches leave a LOT left to be desired, and coming from a guy who likes Hogan and Kane matches, I can point out when matches suck, and Raven's suck a considerably large amount of time.

I haven't seen Raven wrestling since RoH. I've seen him on TNA, but I haven't seen him in any big matches, so I can't say too much about that. But I know I liked what I watched when he was in RoH.

The most recent Raven match that I sat down and watched was the Sacrifice main event of Raven and Sabu vs Jeff Jarrett and Rhino. It was a pretty fun match, though having three other guys in the ring helped out.

I think he's good at creating angles, and he's decent in the ring. But the problem he's suffering through in TNA is two-fold:

1) His creative ideas aren't executed clearly. I say this because in WWE he had the production values of a major corporate entity, and in ECW he had Heyman. In TNA, his stuff lacks because the company doesn't have someone else he has to go through. And if it does, they're doing a bad job of it.


2) His matches are lacking because half of them have been with Jarrett, and the rest haven't had a good strong storyline to build with. This also goes back to point #1. But you take a guy with a brawling style, and put him with a guy who wrestles like a mid-carder in 1996, and it's not going to be pretty

I don't see how he's good at creating angles. Since he left ECW in 97, he's done the same angles. In WCW, he sat around, pouted about the rules and did things "his way". When he first came in, he was at odds with JJ Dillon... nowdays he's pouting about the rules, doing things "his way" and is at odds with Larry Zbyszko.

Then he has a league of followers. The Nest, the Flock, the Aviary..whatever the fuck he wants to call 'em. Low carders who follow him because they've "enlightened him" or because he's an "enigma". Thankfully, TNA isn't currently using the term "enigma" because they have to attached it to an even shittier wrestler. The flunkies all dress like him and follow him around. He's been doing this angle forever.

Then there's the creative idea of breaking a flunky's fingers. Flunky suddenly likes Raven for showing him the light or "introducing him to pain" (an idea he stole from Tool and lachyromology- therapy through crying or suffering pain). He did this to Stevie Richards in ECW, Lodi in WCW and Cassidy Riley in TNA. I'm sure I'm missing a few, in between.

He started the grunge thing around 94, when the trend was already phasing out. He kept on doing it and wearing t-shirts from 1992 (Ministry's Psalm 69 and ST's Art of Rebllion) until 1999 or so...when someone finally bought him a new Inhumans comic book t-shirt.

His interviews are usually ripped off from an early 90's song and tries to use "impressive vocaulary". He's about two steps behind Ultimate Warrior in his mis-use of words. I love the ECW DVD where he pronounces "iconography" as "I-con-oh-graffy". Or his long winding promo he cut on Nitro one time... about how his parents took him skiing, and he looked and saw his face refelected on a mountain.. then an avalanche occured. Al he needs is some facepaint and use of the term "speak not to me of that which you do not know"..and he's the Grunge Warrior!

I'm not a fan of the guy, but everytime I see him on TV, he's doing the same shit that I saw him doing the last time.

He's had other things. His feuds with Dreamer & Sandman were incredible, but as I mentioned before, he had Heyman. A filter, if you will. He was starting an angle in WWE focused around the seven deadly sins when he was released, and it started interestingly enough before it got snuffed.

It's like I said, he's good when he has good "filters" to work through. But when he's got no one to filter his stuff through, to share the idea with, then it just comes out shitty. Which is what seems to be happening now.

Not to mention that the WCW Raven was the same as ECW Raven, Stevie Richards and all. They knew they could rehash some of his character/storylines and most people wouldn't have seen it. I would even call the idea of his followers something he falls back on when trying to re-establish who he is, or trying to find a foothold for the character