Hey...here's another novel idea..an Internet Message Board Topic dealing with DC's "Infinite Crisis" series!!

Anyways.. has anybody picked this up, yet? I don't get my comics until Saturday, but it's supposed to be in my subscription box. Have a sinking feeling that the Powers That Be are trying to reset things to 1982 SuperFriends stuff.

I also can not belive that they're actually using "Infinite Crisis" as a title. That phrase was a joke kicked around by fans for years. Like: "imagine if the Fantasic Four originally went on a Space Shuttle mission and all of their 60's adventures were wiped out...what an INFINITE CRISIS that would be!"

I'm a Marvel head, but I read it in my LCS.

While it was....I assume if you're a DC Fan it was GREAT - for me - DC's insistence that you read every tie in, every loosely connected issue of everything they've published over the past year - and i'm speficially referring to the ruckus caused over the OMAC Project/Wonder Woman arc, left a bad taste on my mouth

I didn't read stuff just because it had that stupid OMAC label on it.

I will at some point but I find it bothersome. DC has been using retcons as a crutch for bad writing for too long. They basically do anything without a care at this point because they know in 5-10 years they'll just rewrite history so it didn't happen.

Finally sat down and read the first issue of "INFINITE Crisis" last night. They've alwasy said, straight-up, that this is a seuqel to "Crisis on Infinite Earths", but you can easily interchange out so many elements of the two stories.

Instead of the anti-matter shadow demons flying around and killing people, they now have OMAC robots. Instead of the the "cosmic storms", they now have the Rock of Eternity causing lightning storms in Gotham. They even have the "meeting on top of building while heroes watch the events" scenes that were all over the place in the original Crisis. There's even a "mysterious force" behind everything. If it's the Anti-Monitor or something connected with Qward...wouldn't THAT be shocking?! They even have a lame Marv Wolfman knock off on the writing and a lame George Perez knock-off on the art. All we're missing is Flash popping in and trying to warn people.

Funny thing is, you can pay 3.99 for INFINITE Crisis #1...or probably about 3.00 for the original "Crisis on Infinite Earths" #1.

In a somewhat related note, I had money burning a hole in my pocket, so I picked up Identity Crisis and really dug it, so now I'm gonna start getting the whole story (OMAC, Rann/Thangar, etc) because I'm a diehard DC fan, and Johns is one of my faveourite writers, so this is right up my alley. Shall report back.

Not to wipe the frosting off your cupcake, but the "whole story" won't be finished until mid 2007. After "INFINITE Crisis", the story will continue in "52"... 52 weekly issues that will explain the Crisis fallout and fill in the gap caused by "One year Later" gimmick that begins in two months.

You may like Johns and his legacy characters, but you'll also be subjected to Judd Winnick with his shitty dialogue and lots of BOMBS (the wonderful catch-all solution when you can't tie up a story). Along with Greg Rucka and his feminist worshipping ways.

Infinite Crisis isn't exactly a straight sequel to "Identity Crisis". You'll need the original "Crisis on Infinite Earths" if you're not familiar with Superboy-Prime, the Anti-Monitor and Alexander Luthor.

Of course, a few dialogue or narration boxes would clear things up in 1/1800th of the time...but don't hold your breath waiting for DC to do that.

Oh yes....Flash DID pop-in, in issue #4. Since they're really aping the original CRISIS right down to the art and layout, they should bring back the hotsy-totsy Dawnstar to shut me up.

I have CoIE. Loved it. And I actually am excited about 52. I'm a fan of "Epic" storylines, what can I say. I missed otu on Seven Soilders, but this sounds cool. I'll probibly end up quitting on this due to my lack of money or short attention span, but I love comics, so this seems right up my alley.

Really, I want "INFINITE" to blow me away...but it's done with such half-assed execution that it's leaving me numb. I was more excited for "Underwear Unleashed" than I am for this. I can't believe that this "big conspiracy plot" was actually their planned story. It seems more like a retcon patchwork/repair job. Not a story someone would plot out with any thought.

I honestly believe that The Writers sit down and pick up two random comics from their long boxes. Then they think "hmm...we've got a Showcase issue with B'wana Beast from the 60's and an Infiinty Inc issue from 1985... let's make these conected somehow!" Lock any fanboy in a bathroom for 20 minutes and he could easily make a connection... but that's not a professional duty someone should be getting paid for.

But to jump back to "Identity Crisis", it's been almost two years now and I'm still waiting for anybody to give me a legitimate reason why EVERY superhero knew Tim Drake's secret identity. Tread carefully when replying to that question, cuz' I've got alot of ammo to support how loaded with bullshit that plot element was.

Um, Brad fucked up? I have no desire to go toe to toe with you on this, because I'm still relativelynew to Comics fandom. All I really know about is the GLC and whatnot. But please, go ahead and rant, because I want to know.

Heh... it goes like this:

The Identity Crisis plot relies heavily on the interaction and comraderie of the old "Satellite Era" JLA. Basically, the team that was around from the mid 70's to 1984. The team that broke up about a year before the first Crisis. When the Crisis rolled around, the "JLA Detroit" was active (Steel, Vibe, Gypsy, etc..) Batman had left the JLA a good year before the 84 breakup to form the Outsiders.

Towards the end of Batman's time in the Satellite JLA, Jason Todd was just starting out as Robin. So it's possible that some of his buddies from the JLA knew that Robin was Jason Todd...and also that Dick Grayson was the first Robin.

Tim Drake as Robin came WELL after Batman's days in the satellite JLA. 1989. Roughly five years in real-time and probably a year in comic time. After the Crisis, Batman's original relationship with the JLA was retconned and became...cloudy. He wasn't buddy-buddy with Superman anymore and he was portrayed as the ultra-serious jerk he is now.

Batman's very protective of Tim. Tim's successor died. Batman hates that fact and doesn't forget it. Why he would tell heroes he hasn't seen or worked with in YEARS about the new Robin is completely out of character. Batman was happy that Tim still had a father and would never do anything to jeopardize that. So are we to believe that Batman, the paranoid recluse who hates public encounters, looked up his old buddies like the Atom and Hawkman and told them:" hey, y'know that new Robin I've got...his name's TIM DRAKE...look him up. Oh yeah, and be sure to tell your ex-wives, supporting cast members and anybody else in your comic". Incredibly out-of-character. I could maybe understand the old JLA guys knowing who Batman is...but the new Robin?!

Makes it incredibly hard to stomach the scene in "Identity Crisis" where Ray Palmer (Atom) and Jean Loring are talking in private about "Tim's dad"...as if that's common knowledge. Ray and jean haven't been together in years...so how they would even know about Tim Drake is ridiculous. It's possible that the Calculator hacked into some files and told Capt. Boomerang to kill Jack Drake...but that doesn't explain the Jean-Ray scene and how every superhero knew Tim was Robin.

People have countered: "well, anybody who knows who Batman is, can easily figure out who Robin is". I think Meltzer relied on this...but it's not correct. Yes, if someone knew that Bruce Wayne was Batman, they could have surmised that Dick Grayson was the old Robin. Bruce and Dick would appear in public together ALOT. Everyone knew Master Dick was Bruce's "ward" and they still do, today (a scene in Nighwting about two years ago referenced this). But Tim is NOT Bruce's "ward". In fact, the two haven't appeared in public. To the average Joe Public DC, there's nothing tying Tim Drake, an unknown average high school kid, to Millionaire Playboy Bruce Wayne. They may as well open a phone book and pick the name of any kid.

This is WWE levels of selective continuity. Where The Writers only rely on the comics that they themselves have read. E. Nelson Bridwell, Gardner Fox and Denny O'Neil are rolling over in their graves....and O'Neil ain't even dead yet!

Oh yeah...and I liked "Geoff Johns" junk the first time.... when a guy named Roy Thomas was doing it.

Good points all around. Did Drake ever tell the new Titans? That's all I can think of. Or that guy who was always on the phone somehow found out.

And what did Thomas write?

Guy on the phone would be Calcuator, right? But even if Calculator found out, or if Tim told the Titans, that still doesn't answer how Ray Palmer and Jean Loring would talk about "Tim's dad" in private.

Roy Thomas is/was a heavyweight in the comics bid-ness. Among other things, he wrote some of the more popular Silver Age yarns of the Avengers and X-men (right before the X-men were canned). He took over Marvel's Editor-in-Chief duties when Stan Lee took a back seat.

He was one of the first fanboys to actually cross-over into the creative side and some of his work showed it. He had a knack for trying to re-create and update Golden Age characters from his childhood (same things Johns is trying to do with current DC and the 80's). The Vision was probably his first stab at this. At Marvel, he did the WWII based "Invaders". When he went to DC in 1981, he did a similar thing when he started up the Golden Age "All Star Squadron". He also spearheaded "Infinity, Inc", which featured legacy versions of Golden Age characters (sons, daughters and god children of old JSA members).

Unlike Johns, Thomas tried to work pathos or morals into his work. His Kree-Skrull War weren't just about an alien invasion...it included a commentary on xenophobic feelings and how gullible a mob can be. Johns just seems to be blowing his wad and trying to impress people with his trivia knowledge ("look..I brought back AIR-WAVE?!! Who remembers him?! Ain't I slick?!")

More info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Thomas

Well, You're right, I guess. All I can say is that maybe Brad assumed we'd all just go "Rumours spread". Or somesuch.

I think part of the problem with comics today is that you have so much history to work with, as well as the retcon. You can't do ANYTHING without stepping on someone else's work.

Frankly, I think both companies need to close out some of their books. Even ones that have been big sellers in the past. I mean, they're never afraid to kill of Ghost Rider or Silver Surfer caliber books, why not Captain America or Superman?

Captain America is an easier fix. Superman and Batman definately need something to help the books. Batman has been a mess for a long time.

Though I've really liked Teen Titans since it was brought back. It's nice having a new team book without a lot of history to bog it down.

History ain't the problem. A Lack of decent editors is the problem. Alot of older writers weren't exactly an encyclopedia of comics knowledge. The editors would handle that.

It'd be: "hey, Mr, Editor..I'm working on a story where Daredevil goes to Mexico and gets transformed into a giant fish...any suggestions or continuity issues would be helpful". An editor might say "hmm..we had a story a few years ago where Arnim Zola was working out of central America and tried to make someone into a fish...I'll send you what info I have on that".

Image made this lack of editting popular in the 90's when most of their books had NO editting. An editor's job now is to mainly meet production schedules and work on sales, sales, sales. They're not "project managers" as much, anymore. With exclusive contracts and shit like that, writers are given WAY too much lee-way with their storylines and the editor's input is nil. (See: the crapfest that is "Black Panther")

Batman really doesn't have alot of continuity problems and potholes. Batman lives in a cave..fights crime with stupid kid. It gets plotholes when you start fucking around with crap like the 12-issue out of continuity "City of Crime" or try to bring back Jason Todd. Or "retiring" Jim Gordon just so Some Writer can fulfill his wetdream of writing a crapped-down version of "NYPD: Blue" in comic form.

They just don't hire writers that know how to handle Batman. He's probably the easiest character, Spider-Man being the second, in the world to write for. Yet it seems they've had 2 guys that have been able to properly do Batman. For a character that's been around for almost 80 years I'd say he has been written well for maybe 25 years.

If they're hiring bad writers, that falls under the editor's watch. They also oversee who goes on which book. It's like having a bad coach for your team.

They've had quite a few writers who have stood out... but the problem with Batman is that few contributtors were given proper credit until the late 60's. I don't mean "credit" as in acclaim, I literally mean credit as in "list their name as WRITER in the credits". In alot of the 50's and 60's stories, who wrote what is debateable. In the books themselves, it just said "Bob Kane".

Frank Robbins, Denny O'Neil, Len Wein, Marv Wolfman, Doug Moench (both times), Chuck Dixon and Jim Starlin turned in good stories on Bats, since 1970. The hacks they've had on Batman, post-No Man's Land (2000 on) have been weak. Again, the editors haven't given a darn. Right out of the block, they blew a key element: at the end of NML, Jim Gordon capped Joker in the knee. Joker then appeared in the first issue of "Harley Quinn" exactly two months later, with no noticeable knee problems or mention of his last "impactful" appearance.

Instead of dealing with any conflict between Gordon and Joker, they set things up for another "massive" crossover-- "Officer Down". Then followed that up with the ridiculous Sasha bodyguard angle and "Bruce Wayne: Murderer, Prison Bitch, Fugitive". It's funny how the Wayne Enterprises/Waynetech board of directors thought Bruce was so important that he needed a boyguard... but soon forgot about that "necessity" when the story ended.

I don't like to acknowlegde hacks with their proper names, but I believe Greg Rucka has been the worst Batman writer in my lifetime. With That Judd Douchebag and his bomb feitsh coming in a close second.

People complain about "Knightfall/Quest/End" when thinking of Batman in the 90's. But Denny O'Neil was the main Bat-editor for almost the entire decade. The guy ran a tight ship and had a long-term plan.

I don't know. That woman on Nightwing has been awful since she got over there. Odd considering she was passable on Gotham Knights. But then that's what happens when someone tries to turn an obviously heterosexual character into a bi-sexual one.

I wanted to like Knightfall/Quest/End but they just fucked that up from start to finish. Knightfall was too rushed. I still don't believe that Bruce would've picked Azriel.

Just to add to my Knightfall thoughts. I thought they really devalued Batman's rogue gallery during that storyline. Having him blow through A list villians in a few panels made them seem less important. Bane was built up really well but it was at the expense of almost everyone else in the Bat-Verse.

I peaked at the torrent for the entire Infinite Crisis and ouch it's a massive 4.5 gigs.

I'm going to order Villians United off of Amazon tomorrow. Not sure if I'll ever read the other Infinite Crisis stuff. Something about the Villians book interests me.

Yeah..stay away from comic torrents. I can't get into them, since you can't take your computer on the shitter with you.

The Woman on Nightwing (Devin Grayson) came aboard around 2002....well after O'Neil had left. O'Neil left right before No Man's Land in 1999, I believe (or shortly after). In short, O'Neil was/is not responsible for her.

Hmm....I've read every issue of Nightwing and don't remember any bi-sexual overtones. People have been referring to That Woman's run as "fan fiction"... because every female has been gushing over how "handsome" Nighwing is. Tarantula banged Nighwing and even got him to agree to marry her, temporarily. It's like That Woman was living out her fangirl fantasies about Nightwing. Like, if I had taken over "Wonder Woman" at age 13..I would've had her getting banged every issue and working as a stripper.

The reason I liked Knightfall was because the whole thing played as a shot at the "NEW, EXTREME HEROES"...like the crap Image was putting out, or Ghost Rider and Punisher. We were supposed to hate Jean-Paul..and we all did. When Bruce finally returned, everyone expected a big "ass-kickingly spectacular fight of utter awesome-ness" between Bruce and Jean-Paul. Instead, as they're setting up for the final fight, Jean-Paul suddenly realizes the error of his ways and gives up "the Mantle of the Bat (ugh, I HATE that term) without a conflict. Fanboys ---and WIZARD in particular--- screamed bloody murder and wanted VIOLENCE, but they completely missed the point. The whole idea was to show that Batman would not work as a "NEW, EXTREME HERO". In that sense, it was a successful story.

The villains were actually given ample time (usually at least one issue) before being taken out in "Knightfall". Batman had a two issue fight with Joker inside the Gotham tunnels that was anything but abbreviated. Film Freak and the Cavalier were taken out in single panels, but that was understandable. The only reason Bane was able to take out Batman was because Batman was completely exhausted from running the gauntlet of villains (exact same thing as Edge taking out John Cena after the Elimnation Chamber! HA!!)

And Nightwing was really....weird around 1993. He was estranged from Batman and off doing his own thing. Bruce commented that "Nightwing's his own man" and didn't want to suck him back into Gotham. Bruce and Dick had been at odds since 1983 or so (with a few temporary tolerations, like the Outsiders/Titans team-up, plus "Year 3" and "Lonely Place of Dying"). Nightwing wasn't an officially sanctioned Bat-family member for those years. Aside from a few instances, he never popped up in Gotham and it would have seemed weird to suddenly pop him in. The two didn't have their kiss and make-up session until late 1994. But not before Bruce had realized the error of his ways and had let Dick play Batman for about 3 months (see late 1994 and the "Prodigal" storyline...ANOTHER plot line that will be copied with "one year later").

There was some interview she did where she went on and on about how Nightwing's a bi-sexual. She also gave her opinion on the character and it was basically the complete opposite of how Nightwing's been written since he first appeared.

I actually had no problem with the ending where Azriel gives up the mantle. It was unexpected and original as far as comics go. My problem is I don't think he would've picked him in the first place. I'm not sure that he would've picked Dick either but I think he would've picked a carbon copy of himself. But I guess, yes I'm going there, I would question his selection of Terry in Batman Beyond too.

It's a fucking great read. I can't wait for the "Secret Six" mini that has spawned from it.

Egads... despite the funny name, Master Dick is NOT bi-sexual. I'm thankful she kept that crap out of the comic. If anything, the guy's a hetero horndog.

That's the long running tasteless joke since the 50's--that Batman and Robin are bi-sexual or gay. Few realize that Robin is essentially Batman's "Rosebud". He represents Batman's lost childhood. It doesn't help that Michael Chabon re-opened the "boy sidekick means the hero is GAY" theme with "Amazing Adventures of Kavelier and Klay" aka "I Wish I Could've Given Jack Kirby a Blow-Job".

DC Animated is a different canon, but you did see the JLU episode that dealt with Terry's origin, didn't you? Amanda Waller revealed that Terry was sort of a genetic carbon copy of Bruce. The episode only aired once, but if you're into torrents, look for the episode titled "Epilgoue"

Actually, I was using that episode to justify discussing Terry in canon. I had forgotten about the whole clone thing though. Cartoon Network really needs to do a better job of reruning the Justice League.

Preach on, Brother Dog! When they had all of TEN episodes, they re-ran them, continually, every weeknight for about four months in 2002. Now that they have 70-some episodes, they jerk with the schedule and never re-run 'em. Miss it once and you're screwed. Alot of hardcore fans have given up on the show because of its horrible scheduling.

To complicate matters, Terry (or at least someone in the Batman Beyond costume) popped up in print in "Superman/Batman", during the latest alternate-dimension/time-hopping story.

To re-up an old thread, I got the first five issues of the actual Inf. Event and I have to say, I'm impressed. I thought it may seem too overblown and hard to follow, but Johns does a good job keeping everything moving while still being comprehendable. I honestly don't see why this is getting such a bad rap.

And Superboy Prime knocking some B-lister's head clean off is badass.

Ah..found it. This garbage and IC as a whole is getting a bad rap because it reads like the "change for the sake of change" stuff from the early 90's. Remember when Cyborg got KILLED and came back with an all-new bad-ass armor?!! Awesome-tac-u-lar-ness!!!

Yeah, me neither.

The intent of this story is to clean up all the changes of the 90's (or post-Crisis). But they're using the exact same tactics and plot devices that they're mocking (killing Pantha and Magpie.... okay. Can't wait until they kill Nemesis!!! or, or... The Wraith!! He was in two issues of Batman around 1986, after all!!) Killing characters "just because"...well, it's stupid. Does anyone give a shit that Pantha is gone? Did anyone give a shit that Pantha was around?! So why have a forgettable character get killed just to pump up the "impact" of your shitty story?

It's simply professional fan fiction. And having a 52 issue safety net to go back and explain your plots is so fucking amatuer. If you need 7 issues, plus 52 more and countless specials and tie-ins to explain your plot...well, that's just bad writing. The plot itself does not read like a planned-out story..it reads like a patchwork retcon job. When Alex Luthor was revealing his plans, I'm surprised that he also didn't take responsibility for the Order of the Scriers, Norman Osborne's return and the Spidey clone!

DC's been using the standard line "this will re-define Character X and his place in the DCU", ad naseum, since about 2000. Nothing ever changes and when the dust clears, we're right back to the status quo.

Another annoying thing: Dan Didio saying that they planned this as far back as the Doom Patrol return?!! Sure.

The multiple earths things isn't a big deal at all. There will still be multiple Flashes, Green Lanterns and continuity... the heroes will just have to go through three more panels of dimension hopping before each team-up.

I guess I'm too juvinilie for disucssions like this, but I like the story. Do I care that those characters died? Nope. They were cannon fodder to pump up their big heel.

I don't get why people get so caught up with the whole "They're not redefining anything!" thing when the stories are still good.

I contend that the stories aren't good. Green Arrow dueling Merlyn and then Dr. Light using BOMBS to blow up part of Star City? Batman having another super secret paranoid plan involving Manhunter rip-offs? Didn't Bats learn his lesson in JLA about 6 years ago?

Don't want you to feel like I'm calling you out, but give me a quick and coherent run-down of what the IC story is.

Alex Luthor and Superboy Prime want to re-create the Multiverse. Alex wants to find the perfect Earth. S-P just wants his "life" back. They dupe Earth Two's Superman into helping them do it, because he thinks doing it will save his Lois.

To do it, they have to kidnap represenitives from all the old Earths. (1,2,Prime, er, 8 and X, I believe. This is all from memory) and create a tower using the Anti-Monitors corpse. The represenitives power the tower and this creates the multiverse (I still haven't read issue six, so I'm not quite sure HOW.)

That's the basic story. The MAIN story, I should say. You have about a zillion subplots.

Which are infuriating people.

If all the additional crossovers and specials involved heroes meeting Alex and the Pocket Utopia crew, then fine. But to tell us that OMACs, the Spectre, Shazam, Blue frickin' Beetle, Checkmate, Max Lord, Detective Chimp, Adam Strange, Thanagarians, destruction of Atlantis, disappearance of Themyscira, Doom Patrol's return and all the other crap is tied into Luthor's plot?

As Nipsey Russell once said :"riiiiiiiiight".

If you need to kidnap certain people to recreate the Multiverse, I get that. Stick to that plan... don't try to squeeze in all this excess "random chaos" bullshit.

Sounds like someone will be writing some mean letters to DC's Editor

I guess I see what you're saying. I happen to think that with the exception of Rann/Thanagar War (Which I'm not a big enough DC Head to quite get yet) all the tie-ins I've read have been really good. I still need to get DoV and the JLA Crisis of Concince one, but I've liked them so far.