Discuss.

Bret vs. Austin- WM13

My second favorite match of all time (behind Eddie vs. Rey from Havoc 97). Crowd heat, crowd brawling the way it should be done, good drama, blood, violence, a double turn, this match has it all. It's a no contest in my mind, this is the best match in WWF history IMO.

Greatest of ALL-TIME? I know we are trying to spark discussion... but ALL TIME? Uh...

Damn thats hard. If we're going by the biggest match of all time greatest, Hulk Hogan vs. Andre The Giant at Wrestlemania III, although it was shitty in terms of ring quality.

Bret vs. Austin from Wrestlemania XIII has previously been mentioned as one of the best brawls and manipulation of the crowd put on by WWE.

Austin vs. Rock from Wrestlemania X-Seven, although not a *****, was off-the-charts amazing in terms of quality and crowd heat generation.

I'll try to think of a few others later. My head hurts from playing too much GTA: San Andreas.

I've got to go with Steambot/Savage WMIII. Just a great piece of storytelling, two legends at their best, and all the elements that remind me why I ever loved wrestling in the first place. At the time, all the near falls were an uncommon thing in a match, but it worked to perfection in terms of drawing the crowd in. Not my favorite match ever, but the best in WWE history.

I honestly don't know if I could narrow it down to one....but here's my top five in no special order....

-Bret/Austin - WM 13

-Austin/Rock - WM X-7

-Owen/Bret - WM X

-Foley/Michaels - Mind Games

-Owen/Bret - Ironman

nevermind...

Randy Savage vs Ultimate Warrior, WrestleMania VII.

Savage dragged Warrior kicking and screaming to my favorite wrestling match ever. This thing oozed emotion. It was one of those matches that was obviously planned out to the smallest detail beforehand, but it was simply awesome. Everything they did was dramatic, the crowd was uber-hot, the announcing was top notch, the post match angle was awesome. People cried.

Bret-Owen Mania 10 and Bret-Austin Mania 13 without question.

The work in Bret-Owen was higher-end, but the drama is better in Bret-Austin, so I don't know which I'd have at #1.

Hart/Austin WM 13

Bret/Owen Cage Match Summerslam 94

Hart/Austin Summerslam

Hogan/Warrior WMVI (Kinda partial to this one since its one of the only 3 WWE PPVs I got to see as a kid at the age of 10)

There are some WCW matches that I was a bigger fan of than these though.

hart vs hbk ironman match is a true classic

That match was boring as hell, dude. I wouldn't call it a classic, let alone the greatest WWF match of all time. There's dozens of matches that are better than it.

Bret vs Owen has my vote.

Bret/Shawn had a nice build to it, I'll agree there. The training videos and the "non-touching of each other before the match" was a good idea.

However... the match, for the first 25 minutes, was the most brutally boring match I can remember seeing. Shawn can NOT work a mat wrestling based match and Bret Hart no-selling everything Shawn did to his arm didn't help.

The match did pick up for the second half, and I still find the sweet chin music to the timekeeper and crazy insane spot where Michaels being dumped over a turnbuckle to the floor awesome, but the match is ruined because of the first half and both mens selfishness of not wanting to job the first fall of the match.

Old topic, but...

The Bret-Shawn iron man is underrated by a lot of people. I really don't buy most of the general criticisms of it. They big ones seem to be:

- Shawn's matwork was bad/didn't go anywhere. I don't think it's bad, just decent or average, and it wasn't meant to go somewhere. It was a means of control fitting into a story about avoiding mistakes.

- Bret no-sold the armwork. I don't have a big problem with this. He shakes off relatively-light control offense. Most of the time Shawn was simply holding Bret's arm. Could he have sold it more? Yes. Is it a major flaw? I really can't say it is.

- No falls. They could've added a couple, yes. But the story is oneupmanship, leading to Shawn trying to avoid mistakes (this is something Bret pointed out in pre-match interviews - he expected Shawn to screw up and said he'd take advantage when he did), leading to Shawn realizing he needs to take risks in order to win as the time runs out. And this story doesn't need a lot of falls.

It's not a great match, probably ***-ish for those who use flakes, just a good/decent match that went longer than it should've.

***-ish is definitely reasonable. It's monsters who say ****-****1/2 and call it one of the best matches in history that makes people come in to tear it apart. (Not to point fingers, but most people I came across who loved this match are, shockingly, HBK fans)

That's weird, because I think HBK has had TONS of other matches that smoke that. It was a great moment at the end, but he had at least a half dozen matches that year alone that were better than it.

Personally, I think you are a little hard on HBK CB. There are a shitload of guys that aren't as good as him, but people give them more credit than Shawn. Like it or not, but I would lump Kurt Angle in that category. Personally, I would put the Mania 12 ironman at about ***1/4, but I couldn't see it getting more prase than that. I really find it humorous when people try and throw a ** or less rating at it because then you can see that person has some HBK hatred going on.

I agree 100 percent. Don't get me wrong, I like Kurt, but Shawn is truely a top-tier worker when he wants to be.

Not to mention that Angle may just be the most overrated guy EVER. Don't get me wrong, I like Kurt.......but he's in the Observer Hall of Fame for Christ's sake. He's not THAT good.....

Angle and HBK can shake hands with each other. Both are probably the leaders in most over-rated ever when it comes to in-ring quality, both have occasionally good promos (while people ejaculate in their pants over every one of them), and both have horrible time selling ANYTHING longer than 44 seconds.

I like watching their matches, but I am usually unbias in my opinions. Watch any Coliseum Video tape from 1992-93 with an HBK match. Most of them are horrible messes, while HBK super-fans will claim they are ***+. Most of Angle's free TV matches are garbage, and many of his PPV matches are over-rated. How the hell did that IronMan match get ****?!?! I say ** tops. TOPS!

(rant mode off)

I still think if you look at their entire bodies of work, HBK has the far better career. He may also have a longer one, but still.

MAY have a longer one? Shawn's been a "Pro Wrestler" for 20 years (actually 16, since he didn't wrestle at all for 1999-2001) while Angle has barely been 5 (minus injuries... 3.5) and is already on the verge of retirement thanks to numerous injuries piled up.

LOOK AT HIS ARMS! They're horrible looking.

I'm personally not a fan of either. I do enjoy certain matches of theirs, but like CB, I find them both horribly overrated. Just because the WWE tells you HBK is a legend and a great wrestler doesn't mean you have to believe it. He's had some GREAT matches, I'll give him that, and he's excellent at bringing drama to a match. I just can't stand his promos and his boring as hell moveset from 10 years ago. And his selling...

As for Angle, he's been overrated by the internet since his debut. He's a good athlete and all, and he seems to have picked up bits and pieces of psychology, but he's still shoddy on the selling, unless he's in there with Benoit or someone.

Both men do have a nack for carrying hosses to great matches though.

I don't believe Angle has really carried anyone major. The only exception is maybe a match with Kane on Smackdown in the winter of 2001-02, and Kane isn't THAT bad of a wrestler, just horrible under-rated because he's a "hoss". Besides, Benoit had TWO better matches with Kane than Angle did, so :D

His match with Big Show at Armageddon 2002 was pretty good I thought. And yeah, that Kane match you are talking about was great as well.

Big Show is pretty good I think (for a man his size, that is). It's just when he's lazy is when he sucks, which was pretty much all of his 2000 run before being sent to OVW to lose +43 pounds. No one is going to confuse him for a masterful wrestler, but he can hold his own quite well.

I lost it with Angle when he had the gaul to complain to management about Guerrero actually selling his moves instead of popping right back up so he could hit another one.

We all know Angle's only "original" move is the Angle-Slam, and all it is is a variation of the firemans carry.

Ankle Lock? Ken Shamrock
Rolling Germans/Any Germans? Chris Benoit
Moonsault? Countless people do them

Hell, I think I've seen Ultimo Dragon and Jushin Liger do his no sell, run up the ropes, and belly to belly someone off the top rope spot years before Angle debuted.

Angle is basically a persons Create-A-Wrestler. he does someone elses big moves, and is basically unoriginal. HIS THEME MUSIC IS RECYCLED FOR GOD'S SAKE! NOTHING ORIGINAL!

Yeah, him taking Benoit's triple german suplex thing really really irritated me. The anklelock wasn't so bad because Shamrock wasn't at least in the company at the time but the Benoit thing just reeked of him being an ass.

Just to add. I think Lesnar blew Angle out of the water as far as inring ability went. He had a better moveset and *gasps* actually used psycology in his matches.

You're right... everyone and their mother does it (the Ankle-Lock) now. The Jobber who fought Raven on Impact absolutely no sold it for 20 seconds (Cassidy Riley I think it was).

Lesnar actually knew how to sell, even for the Hardyz when he was squashing them like grapes.

Thank god Raven broke his fingers afterwards...

And Brock was 5 times the worker Angle was. His moveset was better, he was a better heel, and he knew how to sell properly.

Thank God. I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Yeah, I've NEVER been too high on Angle.

I like me some Angle, but I really thought Lesnar was amazing. I dunno, maybe it's because he's fucking monstrous and can also move, but I've liked the guy since the moment I saw him. And he picked up the pro style way faster than Angle did, in my opinion.

Angle is the better amatuer wrestler, though. :D He won the 1996 Olympics with a broken freakin' neck.

Brock F-Fiving and throwing people like Show and Mark Henry around like they were cruiserweights was amazing.

I'm no ameature wrestling enthusiast, but I'd have to agree. Ask any guy who knows anything about that world, and they'd take Angle over Lesnar in a heartbeat. I think I'd like to see a shoot between them, because Angle supposedly has superior skill, but Brock has so much size.

I heard they had a few backstage confrontations in a competitve fassion, and Angle schooled Brock each time.

I'd believe it.

Ya think he could still do that nowadays with his degenrating physical condition?